Understanding the WW2 nazi act

[Bold]

QUOTE (d'observer @ Jan 18 2007, 02:28 PM)-I checked out some webpages,they said this:
estimated Jewish population before WW2-11 millions others say 15.3...?Who knows whose right?
estimated Jewish killed during Holocaust-+-6 millions

and the so called population in Europe before that 9 millions

Honestly they says 60% of total Jewish population
So here comes the question,hat's long!.... I am not sure what sites you checked. And I don't know the numbers from memory. But one point to keep in mind when reading sites about this. There are many exaggerated (in both ways) numbers out there. Some people try to deny the fact the atrocities of world war 2 happened while other try to make them look bigger.

Then again, there is the question of how exactly do you count! It may look like a stupid question, but counting 6 million people spread across a whole continent is far from easy.

So taking both of these points into consideration I would not look at the numbers too closely. Beside, the exact number is not important. The idea is that it was a lot. If it was 4 million or 8 million does not make it worst or better. It is still a massive number of people who were killed.


QUOTE (d'observer @ Jan 18 2007, 02:28 PM)at least half of them should be able to survive if they flee to WW2 "HEROES" country,say UK,US,Russian,etc,etc. Ever heard about the tiny little thing called the sea? Beside going to a country is one thing. That country still has to accept you. When unsure that you will be accepted, it is a big risk to leave everything.


QUOTE (d'observer @ Jan 18 2007, 02:28 PM)*Yeah,surely if that many people were killed,the Europeans especially the Germany have to make up for it.But why DRAGGED THE WHOLE WORLD along in their repentance..?Most of the world can't do anything to stopped it even if they wanted to... Not sure what you are reffering to. Are you talking about the armistice of world war 1?


QUOTE (shun20 on Jan 18 2007 @ 03:28 PM)The USA, Uk had no clue what really was going on with the jews. Even the german people didnt know. They only knew that they took away all jews to the "Konzentrationslager". They didnt know what happened there. Well, no clue might be a bit strong. But there was no proof. As for the German people, concentration camps were work camps. The information that people were dying and being killed as well as working was simply not circulated or known by many people.


QUOTE (d'observer on Jan 18 2007 @ 04:26 PM)But,that's why I was confused.If they indeed have suffered that much,shouldn't they stop doing what they did to the Palestinians now?They should well-aware how hurts it felt being oppressed for no reason. That is probably the greatest question of all time! Actually, many Israelli are asking that question. But other ones seem more interested in other goals.

Using the "fear of the unknow" and the "fear of the other one" are good ways to attain a goal. Whatever the goal.

 

[rtgmath]

QUOTE (Bold @ Jan 18 2007, 05:31 PM)QUOTE (d'observer @ Jan 18 2007 @ 02:28 PM)
at least half of them should be able to survive if they flee to WW2"HEROES" country,say UK,US,Russian,etc,etc.
Ever heard about the tiny little thing called the sea? Beside going to a country is one thing. That country still has to accept you. When unsure that you will be accepted, it is a big risk to leave everything.
You are quite correct. In fact, anti-Semitism was rife in the UK, the US, and in Russia as well. A ship full of Jewish refuges made it to the US, only to be turned away. I don't remember the name of the ship, at the moment. But in general, Jewish refugees had a hard time getting to other places en masse.

Besides, going somewhere else cost money -- money that most Jews simply did not have. The local shopkeeper might have had enough to live comfortably at home before the persecution began, but when laws were passed limiting the amount of money in cash that Jews could possess, why there was no way for them to leave if they did not wish to simply starve.

There are lots of people who wish to deny that the Holocost ever happened. I take a look at those people, and find as a disturbingly common trait a general racial/cultural intolerance to those who aren't like "them." Have problems? Demonize a class of people for them!

The six-million number is something of a calculated value. The estimated Jewish population beforehand was probably a low figure, since many Jews would not identify themselves as such publicly in the face of rampant prejudice. Then, too, the remaining population is not merely the before figure minus the murdered figure. Children were born.

But back to those who deny the Holocost, despite the great weight of evidence for it -- what kind of person by quibbling about numbers actually tries to deny the Jews' suffering and gloss over it? What kind of person would do that about anyone?

 

[d'observer]

Most of them were not actually denying the fact it did happened,but just want to know if it match the number the Jewish were always pointing out to us.But,it's true,numbers are much less importants since each and every humans' life were important and valuable,genocide was never a right act to begin with.
QUOTE (rtgmath)You are quite correct. In fact, anti-Semitism was rife in the UK, the US, and in Russia as well. A ship full of Jewish refuges made it to the US, only to be turned away. I don't remember the name of the ship, at the moment. But in general, Jewish refugees had a hard time getting to other places en massYeah,such a "HEROES" for WW2.But then why they're so protective towards the Jews now?Repention?Even when they killed Palestinians with no concrete reason,the Jews can't be blame?You said it before rtgmath-san,despite the number,killing was never a right act.Continue on doing this,then one day they need to repent to the Palestinians.Well,if they ever care.I read somewhere that when a higher-ups in British army(forgot what's his name) successfully taken Baitul-Maqdis from the Ottoman empire in what,WW1...?He said something like this "Finally...the grudge of the Crusades has finally being paid...(with big smile)".Well,the 1st Crusades has killed over 80,000 innocent civilians Muslims when they first conquered Baitul-Maqdis,but they seems never want to repent for it....And remember this,around 65 millions people killed in WW2(if my sources correct),and well,most of them are not Jewish,but seems they were pretty much forgotten by history...
QUOTE (Bold-sama)I am not sure what sites you checked. Just type 'estimated Jewish killed in Holocaust' and 'estimated Jewish population before WW2' at yahoo! search engine Bold-sama,they're tons of it.Well,most of them are from Jewish org and even that differs on it,so that's why i said i don't know whose is right.
-Anyway I was a bit happy you guys responded to this.Never want to create some enemies or such,but need to share some thoughts on this.This is 'Thoughful Sections" after all..Need to do what my teachings tell me to do....
"In the name of God, Most Gracious, Most Merciful

By (the Token of) Time (through the ages),
Verily Man is in loss,
Except such as have Faith, and do righteous deeds,
and (join together) in the mutual teaching of Truth,
and of Patience and Constancy.
(Surah al-'Asr)
- translation by Abdullah Yusuf Ali"

PEACE!

 

[Ausdoerrt]

Depending on what actions are meant... The war triggered by german nationalism being put down after WWI and emergence of nazi because of incompetence of Weimar Republic's government, or the holocaust which had purely economical context - oh well, some nationalism involved, I guess, but I think it was done to raise the economy... Which worked!

 

[d'observer]

QUOTE (Ausdoerrt @ Jan 19 2007, 03:07 AM) Depending on what actions are meant... The war triggered by german nationalism being put down after WWI and emergence of nazi because of incompetence of Weimar Republic's government, or the holocaust which had purely economical context - oh well, some nationalism involved, I guess, but I think it was done to raise the economy... Which worked!
Except that they've gone too far that it has reversed effect instead....that is...

 

[rtgmath]

QUOTE (Ausdoerrt @ Jan 19 2007, 03:07 AM) Depending on what actions are meant... The war triggered by german nationalism being put down after WWI and emergence of nazi because of incompetence of Weimar Republic's government, or the holocaust which had purely economical context - oh well, some nationalism involved, I guess, but I think it was done to raise the economy... Which worked!
Well, no. It didn't work. The raising of the economy was done through inflationary spending. You print up more money and spend it before the rest of the world feels the effects of more (worthless) paper money.
(BTW: It has been a long while since I studied the history of this period, but here goes! If I am incorrect, feel free to correct me.)

By the time you actually get around to the disposition of the Jews, the economy was sinking under the load of hyperinflation, which would still get dramatically worse. Seizing Jewish wealth to spend could not and did not improve the economy, nor did forcing them (along with other undesirables and criminals) into concentration camps to work at manufacture without pay. All that did was to delay the inevitable a little bit.

This was part of the German push to occupy and loot new territory. They desperately needed wealth of any sort. The Armistice Treaty from World War 1 was so harsh economically that they were being strangled.

It is true that the Weimar Republic was incompetent. That was because Germany didn't have a non-autocratic tradition of leadership. The Republic tried to be democratic, but failed because it didn't know how to do it (along with difficulties financing anything.

As for "HEROES," well the US and allies deserve some scorn. But we'll try to balance that out later. I've got to get to work.

Regards,

 

[d'observer]

QUOTE (rtgmath @ Jan 19 2007, 06:38 AM) As for "HEROES," well the US and allies deserve some scorn. But we'll try to balance that out later. I've got to get to work.

Regards,
Yeah,I'm looking forward for that.Kind of fond with your writings,rtgmath-san.

(noob-sempai,hadji128-san and Bold-sama and many others are good too!I on the other hand...well...

)And my knowledge doesn't necessarily a true ones either,so like rtgmath-san,I'd like those who noticed if there's anything wrong about me,feel no hesitation on telling me that.Need to straight out my knowledge(though I'd like to hear it from multiple source though),won't be much of a person if I'm not...
I forgot to answer Bold-sama question earlier...
QUOTE (Bold-sama)QUOTE (d'observer @ Jan 18 2007, 02:28 PM)
*Yeah,surely if that many people were killed,the Europeans especially the Germany have to make up for it.But why DRAGGED THE WHOLE WORLD along in their repentance..?Most of the world can't do anything to stopped it even if they wanted to...

Not sure what you are reffering to. Are you talking about the armistice of world war 1?No,no.I was talking about how the Europes,US and their allied countries always being so protective of the Jewish,NOW.None can't make bad statements on the Israelis and if they do,whoever he is,would be condemned as anti-semitic,bad person,world's threat etc,etc.And it applies to the whole world,which why did I arise the question.And one more side-note,John Kerry has this pledge to protect the Israel even better in his 2004 presidential campaign.That's weird considering why would an American presidential candidate would have such pledge to win votes,and seems this 'pledge' is just as important as to protect the Americans itself.This prove most Higher-ups in Americans government were heavily sponsored by Jewish organization.Uh,shouldn't this mean the Americans,especially the Christians need to at least be worried that the Jewish have such influence in such important part of their country?Seems like they're just a puppet to the Israelis.
Regards to you as well,rtgmath-san...Edit:One more thing,did your birthday in the profile is true,rtgmath-san?If so,guess I need to be more polite to you,well,since we've got about 30 years gap in our age...

 

[MoMo-ChAn]

I will tell one think Hilter had a problem with his mind and there are proff of that but i can not show them to you and the other thing why you all just talk about Jews ( don't thnk that I hate them because not ) what about other countries that he invade and kill people in there, and camps that's tru there were and it was a hell that you wouldn't want to be in.

 

[d'observer]

QUOTE (MoMo-ChAn @ Jan 19 2007, 09:40 PM) I will tell one think Hilter had a problem with his mind and there are proff of that but i can not show them to you and the other thing why you all just talk about Jews ( don't thnk that I hate them because not ) what about other countries that he invade and kill people in there, and camps that's tru there were and it was a hell that you wouldn't want to be in.
Yeah,basically that's what I'm saying.If that's not enough perhaps we should talk about 80,000 innocent Muslim's civilians massacered in 1st Crusade,or about 8,000 Bosnian-Muslim's men slain in Sebrenica(which the Netherland's armies were sent by NATO/PBB to prevent that,instead they join the Serbs army watching the massacres going on,while having tea(according to the Bosnians themselves if I remember it correctly)),or even perhaps lots and lots of genocide done by the Americans soldiers in Vietnam.Anyway,the American's government never make a ruckus over all that...

 

[rtgmath]

QUOTE (d'observer @ Jan 19 2007, 11:41 AM)QUOTE (rtgmath @ Jan 19 2007 @ 06:38 AM)
As for "HEROES," well the US and allies deserve some scorn. But we'll try to balance that out later. I've got to get to work.Yeah,I'm looking forward for that.Kind of fond with your writings,rtgmath-san.

Why, thank you!

But now to deal with a subtle and sometimes slightly out-of-skew notion. Yes, the US today is a staunch ally of Israel. And yes, there was anti-Semitism prior to World War II. But the US did not go to war in World War II for the sake of the Jews one little bit. The heroism of the US in WWII has nothing to do with the Jews.

Hitler was out to create a world subservient to the German state. Although Germany was a minor colonialist (Namibia and Tanzania), its defeat after WWI severely limited its colonialist ambitions. Germany felt the sting. Of all the major European nations, it felt it had the right to be as influential in world affairs as any, and yet it was economically strangled. Revenge was very much in the German mindset for such humiliation.

The Allies were very much trying to defend themselves. Germany would speak peace, and then march into a country in a matter of days with little resistance. In January of 1940, Germany and Russia controlled nearly all of eastern Europe. In January of 1941 France, Norway, and all of Northern Africa had fallen under German control -- among other things (we are not going to discuss Japanese involvement).

Despite the fall of Europe, Africa, and the Far East to dictatorships, the US did not enter the war until after the attack on Pearl Harbor by Japan. Even then, we declared war on Japan -- but did not enter the war in Europe until after the other Axis powers had declared war on the US. So like the other allies, we were in fact trying to defend ourselves.

If Germany hadn't gone after Russia despite their Non-Aggression pact, Russia would have continued to be an aggressor in that war. The betrayal exacted a terrible toll on the Russians, though it proved disastrous for Germany.

But none of this was for the sake of the Jews. During the war, racial propaganda villified the Germans and Japanese alike. Anti-semitism was still pervasive.

It was pretty much *after* the war was over that the world conscience concerning the Jews became active. It was after the war that we saw the atrocities, the concentration camps, the gas chambers. It was then we understood. We had fought the war for ourselves. We rescued others to save ourselves. And in the doing of it we rescued a people we had been rather prejudiced against.

But they were only one group among many. In the wake of victory the Allies discovered that many had large hearts. Attitudes could change. And while there was still an abundance of racism left to go around, attitudes did eventually change. The more we knew about what the Jews had faced, the more we understood. It could have been anyone. And many, many more than the Jews died. Why the Soviet Union lost ten million people! But the Jews had been a nation in perpetual exile from antiquity. Even though spread out throughout the world, they had been targeted.

I hope this helps you understand things just a little bit. The US and others are protective of the Jews because they swore that no more would they be subject to extermination as a people.

You may indeed accuse the US of hypocrisy. It would be true. After all, there is a genocide occurring in Darfur, and in other places in the world. It is true that we have not met all such terrible things with consistent or appropriate measures. But even had we willed to, could we have? Iraq has taught us that there are some hatreds far beyond our ability to restrain.

And yet there has been no other people quite like the Jews, whose Father begat three of the world's greatest monotheistic religions -- Judaism, Islam, and Christianity. Like it or not -- like them or not -- their history and ours are intertwined irrevocably.


QUOTE (d'observer)Edit:One more thing,did your birthday in the profile is true,rtgmath-san?If so,guess I need to be more polite to you,well,since we've got about 30 years gap in our age...

Yup. Quite true. I'm a math prof at a community college. I have a wife and four children. The oldest is 19 and the youngest is 7. As for being "more polite," well, politeness is always nice, but you can bet I don't always get it from my older children (though they usually do quite well). Come to think of it, my 7-year-old is often not polite. She is quite presumptuous, although usually in a loving way.

Now, as for
QUOTE (d'observer)even perhaps lots and lots of genocide done by the Americans soldiers in Vietnam.Anyway,the American's government never make a ruckus over all that...

That US soldiers did some horrible things in Vietnam is well known. Some people were eventually prosecuted over some of it. However, these things were not "genocide."

We need to be specific with our terms. Genocide is "the deliberate killing of a large group of people, esp. those of a particular ethnic group or nation." We were engaged in a political war, not an ethnic one. We were killing "Communists", not necessarily Vietnamese. The objective was not to kill a people or nation. We were not out to destroy North Vietnam or to exterminate its people. We were there to establish a democracy in South Vietnam.

Yes, there were still large amounts of dead as a result. The war in Vietnam was ill-conceived. It was a reaction against Communist China. Please remember that we'd had quite a lot of bad experience with totalitarian regimes in WWII. The determination to spread democracy was a natural response to such experience, if we now see that it was not always the best one. There had been initial successes -- Japan, South Korea, Germany. Successes came harder the longer in.

As part of those who won WWII, the US gained a rather large ego complex, sustained by huge economic gains. Now, as the rest of the world is on par with the US economically (or gaining rapidly), the US is finding out that it is not omnipotent. It is a hard place to be in, and some people are never going to "get it."

Please understand. The US has done plenty wrong. But for most people in the US (including many leaders) the decisions are made in large part due to a self-deluded ignorance.

Regards,

 

[Bold]

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