Understanding the conflict in Israel

[monsta666]

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The question is do you have an understanding of what happened in Israel in 1948 and what caused the conflict that we see today?

Keep in mind the state of Israel was formed in 1948. So it is important to consider who was living in that area before the formation of the state. I will go on to say that Palestinians and Israeli's are not groups of attention seekers. They have very real problems.

Do you believe one side is wrong and the other is right, or do you think both sides are wrong. In any case what is the best solution to ending the conflict in Israel once and for all?

 

[Dalriada]

QUOTE
Do you believe one side is wrong and the other is right?

Except if you have an agenda to push, the fact that both parties have fucked up on a big scale since 1948 is hardly debatable. Even since the last years (hello, Lebanon War !)

About the solution, you should ask what solutions can be realisticaly achieved. Because "They should realize that all this stuff is stupid and make people suffer, then start working hand-in-hand together" is probably the best solution. But is completely unrealistic.

 

[Meny]

i somewhat understand it (my mum explained to me some weeks ago). and i have to say, that i thought of myself as a very ignorant person for judging Osama Bin laden as a mad man/psychopathic (was it spelled right? oo').
if you go back and see what ONO (you guys call it ONO?) has done by getting all the Jutish people from world war II and "throwing" them in Palestina and changing its name to Israel and dividing it by two. You can see why the freck he did what he did.

yes, his actions were irrational ones, but if you try to see his ethics, they may not appear to be all wrong. (do you get what i'm trying to say ? i'm not that great at expressing myself in english :T)

so, continuing, it began a civil war, the american president, sent his army to Israel (please, correct me if there is anything wrong, because i can also learn : D), then a lot happened, they took Saddan Hussen from there, then they killed him.
and the anger just grew and grew. and now the american army can't leave Israel because if they do so, there will be civil war.

something like that, right ? (i'm really sorry, our geography teacher will only teach about this in the next semester).

see yaa

 

[Vicepuma]

I'll start off with saying that I have several Palestinian friends so I might not be totally bias in this case still I do have firm beliefs in the matter. As it stands now the matter will never be resolved as one side always has the advantage and always had it to begin with. The Israelis had both the backing from the US and the financial support to actually drive trough what should have been impossible in 1948 but one most not forget that the British are also at fault here for "giving" away "their" colony at the time.

Simply put in my eyes what was done to the Palestinians was just as bad as the prosecution of the Jewish people in WW2. I mean for the world community just to decide that a land already inhabited should belong to someone else who had very weak claim if any at all is beyond my grasp of reasoning. I can admit the Jewish people went trough something that no one should endure however it didn't justify to prosecute another people just to please the rich Jews living in America which i think clearly was the case in 1948. After the invasion little could really be done from the Palestinians because clearly they didn't have any kind of a country since being a colony for a good deal of time and the state of the countries surrounding it weren't that much better at least not from a military point of view. In terms of that with the support of the UN and US and all the technology that came from that it was an maybe not easy win but kinda given but what happened after that bred the real resentment. Instead of being satisfied of the area received the Israelis thought it as their birthright to take back all the lands they believed be theirs without exception and in a very cruel and inhuman way as they still doing.

In my honest opinion I think that resisting the occupation as the Palestinians are doing is the right decision after being driven from your home and totally cut of from everything, not to mention all the damn settlements that pop up in occupied Palestine and no I will not call it Israel cause it definitely is not. What surprises me is that they give no aid to the people no chance to rebuild their country instead they destroy every attempt of rebuilding and aid furthermore they treat them as animals who need to be watched and just to spice it up rain missiles over their heads every other day just so they get the picture. Is that human? NO it's as inhuman as systematical killing of someone with a certain belief or religion.

How to solve it? Well i can't see any way of doing that right now but a step in the right direction would be total recalling of all troops, then acknowledging the state of Palestine and letting the people start living their lives without fear from missiles and artillery then it might change things for the younger people who don't have to grow up in hate and fear and discourage them from taking actions cause I would do the same if I'm oppressed my whole life and it wouldn't take a lot of convincing. From the Palestine side they need to acknowledge Israel even if it means going against everything cause let's face it they are there and will stay whatever actions are taken that way their children might grow up in a country of their own and live in peace maybe.

That is the ideal solution of things which is maybe a hundred years of and the grudge and hate that had been built lies very deep in bedded and is being ground in every day.

I'd like to say that I'm more for the Palestinians then I ever will be for the Israelis and their "fears" anyway I'm tired of writing anymore but will be happy to respond to any objections.

Oyasuminasai

 

[JunMisugi]

QUOTE (Meny @ Apr 23 2008, 11:16 PM)i somewhat understand it (my mum explained to me some weeks ago). and i have to say, that i thought of myself as a very ignorant person for judging Osama Bin laden as a mad man/psychopathic (was it spelled right? oo').
if you go back and see what ONO (you guys call it ONO?) has done by getting all the Jutish people from world war II and "throwing" them in Palestina and changing its name to Israel and dividing it by two. You can see why the freck he did what he did.

yes, his actions were irrational ones, but if you try to see his ethics, they may not appear to be all wrong. (do you get what i'm trying to say ? i'm not that great at expressing myself in english :T)

so, continuing, it began a civil war, the american president, sent his army to Israel (please, correct me if there is anything wrong, because i can also learn : D), then a lot happened, they took Saddan Hussen from there, then they killed him.
and the anger just grew and grew. and now the american army can't leave Israel because if they do so, there will be civil war.

something like that, right ? (i'm really sorry, our geography teacher will only teach about this in the next semester).

see yaa
Uhm Meny-san I guess you mixed up a few things, Saddam Hussein wasn't captured in Israel, it was Iraq, and the US army is currently staying in Iraq to prevent a civil war there and not in Israel. And Saddam Hussein is not that much related to the conflict between Israel and Palestine, I guess you probably misunderstood a few things.

Well anyway to come back to topic I guess for most part it was wrong UN politic, I mean there is no doubt about it that the jewish people went through unimaginable sorrow and pain through the WWII, and it was not the only time in history that the Jewish people were horribly discriminated, as far as I know in the past they were very very often declared as a scapegoat for whatever silly reason. And if you consider that and the peak of their discrimination during the WWII it's clear and understandable that they tried to get a own state with all their force in order to create a home where they can life peacefully without fear of persecution and discrimination in the future.

However that what the UN did was...well it was lets say not such a "good" solution, I mean every nation would be angry if someone takes some part of their territory away and gives it to someone else. And if you consider that the Arabian people were right from the start against these plans, and that the UN still approved to these plans against their will it's clear that they have such a huge hatred towards Israel(and USA) and that most still refuse to recognise Israel as a independent State.

The huge hatred between Israelis and Palestines nowadays is in my opinion for both sites understandable, since in the early years after Israel was created, it was constantly attacked by Palestine and other Arabic nations, however since they won all wars ( at least I think so)they gained more and more territory and Palestine on the other hand lost more and more of their territory which in the end created the situation of today. And all these wars in the past led in the end to the colony politic under which the palestines suffer nowadays, and as a revenge for that and the overall discrimination they attack Israel via suicide attacks etc.., while Israel answers this with attacks on Palestine and this circle went on and on in the past years.

It's so hard to find a solution, because both sites are right, I mean due to the events of the past it's understandable that Israel has such a close eye on Palestine and the Arabian world in whole, and would like to keep Palestine as small as possible, and well the Palestines lost their land due to Israel and the UN, and have not a real home nowadays and suffer under Israel.

Thats why I think the reason for this problem is for most part wrong UN politic, it's understandable that the jewish people wanted to create their state in the area where their origin lies, but nevertheless it would had been better if they had also taken the opinion of the Arabian people especially the opinion of the Palestines more into consideration and tried to find a solution with which all sites can life.

Possible solution nowadays, no idea what happened has happened and no one can change it anymore, and nowadays theres simple no solution where everyone is restless happy so I think the best way would be something like Vicepuma already said, Palestine has to acknowledge Israel and has to stop terrorist attacks, and Israel has to acknowledge the state of Palestine and has to stop their colony politic, sigh but unfortunately it's not as easy as it sounds, theres just too much hatred( and for some part also religion) involved.

 

[Dalriada]

@Meny : You're indeed mixing everything.

Ben Laden is not particularly interested in Palestin, but at the Western presence in the middle-east, especially Saoudia (but strangely enough, also Spain, because a good part of Spain was Muslim a long long time ago).
And his ethics are as fucked up as his actions, in my not so humble opinion.

About the US Army, JunMisugi explained it vary well. I'll just add some chronological points to make things clearer :
The creation of Israel : 1948. Since then, various wars (1948 and 1967 being the main ones) and constant unrest (bombings, retaliation etc).
The invasion of Irak by George W. Bush (his dad also it that in the early 90's) : 2003.
So you see that the problems with Israel are far older than the problems in Irak.

Although it's true that since... the 70's I'd say, the USA are helping a lot Israel (selling weapons, backing them in the UN).

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QUOTE
It's so hard to find a solution, because both sites are right

I'd say both sides are wrong, but I'm pessimistic.
And you pointed the problem very well.


QUOTE sigh but unfortunately it's not as easy as it sounds, theres just too much hate( and for some part also religion) involved.

More than hate, there's also a problem of borders.
Israel has a lot of settlers in the West Bank, and if the government tries to make them leave, it's also assured to fail and be replaced.
That wuold make of course a Palestinian state very difficult to run. You need some industries in a country (for jobs or taxes), and I don't see how it could be done in the scattered lands that Palestin is today. Of course, no jobs would mean poverty, which leads to misery, which leads to anger, which leads to attacks against Israel which leads to the dark side of the Force.

About the existence of Israel, one point.
It may have been a mistake.
But now, it exists, we can't change that.
So the wrongness of its creation is no more part of the solution, except if you want to displace them all, but it wouldn't be better than what was done in 48.

 

[monsta666]

QUOTE (Vicepuma @ Apr 24 2008, 12:21 AM) As it stands now the matter will never be resolved as one side always has the advantage and always had it to begin with. The Israelis had both the backing from the US and the financial support to actually drive trough what should have been impossible in 1948 but one most not forget that the British are also at fault here for "giving" away "their" colony at the time.

It is true that the British supported the Jewish population even before the war, and indeed provided military support for the Jewish people so as to return to their promised land. However with the increase violence in Israel which included paramilitary organisations attacking British organisations their stance became more neutral. Eventually they pulled out of the territory thus giving up their colony. It should be noted however that this occurred shortly after the war. Britain was already losing control of its empire (countries such as India would shortly gain their independence). Further the formation of the state of Israel also received backing from the UN so to say it is solely the fault of the UK would be unfair.


QUOTE (JunMisugi @ Apr 24 2008, 02:52 AM)However that what the UN did was...well it was lets say not such a "good" solution, I mean every nation would be angry if someone takes some part of their territory away and gives it to someone else. And if you consider that the Arabian people were right from the start against these plans, and that the UN still approved to these plans against their will it's clear that they have such a huge hatred towards Israel(and USA) and that most still refuse to recognise Israel as a independent State.

The solution was never a good one (it's unfair to force a nation give up its land). However the UN's original plan was to split Israel into three areas where one was controlled by the Arabs; another by the Jewish while Jerusalem was to become a international city. Problem is the Arabs did not recognise the existence of the Jewish state and thus rejected the plan. In a sense most countries would not agree to such terms anyway. On the other hand the Jewish did not see the original treaty as fair and felt they had the sole right to the land.


QUOTE (JunMisugi @ Apr 24 2008, 02:52 AM)It's so hard to find a solution, because both sites are right, I mean due to the events of the past it's understandable that Israel has such a close eye on Palestine and the Arabian world in whole, and would like to keep Palestine as small as possible, and well the Palestines lost their land due to Israel and the UN, and have not a real home nowadays and suffer under Israel.

Perhaps both sides have the "right" over the land but they have made some very bad choices along the way. Examples in 1967 after the six day war Israel occupied areas beyond the Green Line which went against agreements made in 1949. It is one of the main reasons of conflict between the Palestinians and Israeli's. Then the Palestinians attacked the Israeli athletes in the 1972 Munich games. There was also the hijacking of a plane in 76 done by Palestinian terrorists. There are other questionable activities that occurred in the background but those are the main cases when the sides committed wrong acts.

The problem with the whole thing is both sides are unwilling to give anything. Israel is reluctant to give back its occupied lands while Palestinian largely fails to recognise Israel and vice versa. Until such both sides recognise each other nothing is going to change. Hammas stated they want to reclaim the whole land while Israel is more concerned about minimising the land held by the Palestinians, regardless of whether they have the right to the land. The first step in solving this mess would be that Israel hand over its extra territories reclaimed after 1967 (namely the Gaza Strip and the West Bank). After this Palestinian should recognise Israel's existence and everyone should just live in peace. I am quite pessimistic such a thing will happen though.

 

[franzoir]

A nice political discussion.

Ok, im not even going to pretend that i have a indepth knowledge of the middle east because i dont. I find myself not really having interested in the middle east as a case study but rather the broader political thoery of the state that may challenge my own views.

The middle east to me is a conflict where ethnicity, religiousity and political sovereignty all come to a clash which makes for a difficult situation. The heart of the matter is palestinians are fighting for a sovereign state in land which is being occupied by Israel. However Israel is a nation state and is recognise by the whole world which validates it.

Some of the worst problems in the world stem from formation,function or failure of the state. My usual theory when it come to matters of the state is, no international intervention because they do not know the social construct of the country and in most cases end up making matters worst. In my mind it's always up to the indigineous population to create their own state with their own self determination. Problem with this is it lead to much blood being spilt. I justiy this argument by looking at some most successful countries today. French revolution, American revolution, English civil war. These are violent and bloody event that have greatly contributed to how democratic states today work.

This relates to the middle east crisis because i believed they should duke it untill they can come to some sort of agreement. However why this cannot be wholly be applied to the middle east is because of the hand western countries played in the formation of the Israel state. This means America and Britain in particular are partly responsible the ongoing atrocities and much to dismay must intervene inorder to atleast quell the violence. However at the time of 1948 jewish people had just come out of the holocaust so its no wonder people were generally on the side of them creating their own state. I mean who in their sane political mind would oppose the creation of an Israel sate, Germay? IMO this makes the situation even more tricky.

However in saying this, i feel there are solutions to the long conflict. America could do what Britain did when they split India thus creating India and Pakistan. I wouldnt advise this because it would still leads to disputes over who gets the holy city. Second solution, which i think is the best solution, surprise surprise, is to let them duke it out with no intervnetion. Lets the loses on both sides be so grave where there comes a breakthought in history. Either they wipe each other out, Israel makes concessions to create a sovereign Palestinian take, or Palestinians and Isreals learn to live together in 1 state sharing the holy cities and respecting each others difference. I would prefer the third options, but im a realist with my head in the clouds, and this probably never happen.

P.S I havent mentioned the series of unfortunate events that have followed this conflict. Such as the assassination of Isreal PM by none other than a jewish man
which greatly undermined the first real chance of peace. What i have stated above is just a brief political overview without getting bogged down by the issues complexity.