To torture or not to torture

[rtgmath]

What do you think "torture" is? Is it ever acceptable? Under what circumstances?

The news is full of horrible doings. People are beheaded in Iraq on an almost daily basis. There have been some few accounts of US and British soldiers acting inappropriately (yes, including torture, murder, rape), but the accounts of Iraqi-on-Iraqi brutality far surpass any harm the US soldiers have been reported to have done.

And in the US, a subtle shift of attitudes is occurring. We are finding an adversary who does not care about the Geneva Conventions and who will not abide by them. Should the US abide by those conventions if the adversary does not? Tom Delay, currently under indictment for money-laundering for the Republican Party, has decided to help out the Bush Administration by insisting that waterboarding is not torture, since there is no physical damage to the individual.

I would presume he would be incensed if such treatment were given to American captives. But it does bring up an issue. You are fighting for a cause, and you capture someone you think is with the enemy. What do you do?

So, for your debating pleasure, I open up this thread.

 

[warita200]

QUOTE (rtgmath @ Nov 03 2006, 03:50 PM) And in the US, a subtle shift of attitudes is occurring. We are finding an adversary who does not care about the Geneva Conventions and who will not abide by them. Should the US abide by those conventions if the adversary does not?
you talk out of my soul.... I have been wondering why the western world handles the middle east issues with silk gloves, considering that ppl from middle east couldnt care less. In western part of the world issues like humanity, fairness, tolerance and god knows what else are debated on daily basis..... "we cant do this or that, it wouldnt be politically correct!!!"
Ehm ehm, and is it correct, that terrorists drag the entire world into their problems? They cant solve the problem themselves so they force the rest of the worl to participate in this bloody game. Is it fair, that some palestine activist kills a defenseless izraeli woman and her infant children? I dont think so.... so why do we still care about political correctness, if they dont care? Because it would put us on the same level as those barbarians? Maybe..... but the question is, how are we going to defend ourselves from such ppl? If we stay on the "politically correct" side, it will soon be the losers side. thats for sure.

 

[wittyfox]

It doesn't make it right to torture/rape/kill/steal/or whatever else thing some one can come up with just cause the other side is doing it. If you want to pay them back or you want to stop them, stop fighting a war like idiots. America is running around Iraq getting bombarded and ambushed like a bunch of chickens with their heads chopped off. The problem with this war isn't that the insurgents aren't following special placed rules and don't care, the problem is this war is being lead by useless, greedy two headed idiots with a commander and chief that doesn't even like to admit when things are going bad. I believe it took him 3 years into this war before he admitted there were some mistakes taken. Not to mention the fact it is virtually impossible to fight a war on terror. Terror is a tactic, a tactic any person, man women or child, can do and from the looks of things will do. How can you ever justify ending this war? Even if Iraq is "freed" and the government becomes firm, wouldn't there still be people who dont like it? or people who are bitter at America for what they did. That would mean there will be a violent circle that cant be ended ever, and the insurgents will just raise up again and America will have to fight yet again

Its hard to fight a war on a country, when you aren't actually fighting its government, and not all its citizens but little gangs that pop up that may or may not be lead by a person that is dead but either way you cant find him. Their torturing people is wrong, but if you ask me the way america has been portraying this war and lying about it is pretty low down also. The last thing america needs is to add torturing to the list of reasons why people should hate us more. If the soldiers start to act like terrorist anymore sooner or later there aren't going to be anyway to tell the two apart.

 

[warita200]

I dont agree with torturing..... I actually ment we should stop being overly politically correct and pay them back with the same currency so to say.

 

[Bold]

QUOTE (wittyfox @ Nov 03 2006, 07:16 PM)Not to mention the fact it is virtually impossible to fight a war on terror.
You just put the finger on the problem. If I were a terrorist who hated the US, right now, I would be preatty proud of myself. The objective of terror is to make people terrorized. Once terrorized, theyr start to change their living habits.

In other words, terrorists don't want to kill people. That is a tool, not a goal. The goal has partially been attained. The targeted countries started to change drasticly since the first actions. (new laws, methods, a general fear).

Just remember two weeks ago when a plane piloted by a baseball player lost control and crashed in New York. Some people started to panic massively! If people are so afraid that when they see an accident they start trembling in fear, the goal was attainned.


QUOTE (rtgmath @ Nov 03 2006, 05:50 PM)Tom Delay, currently under indictment for money-laundering for the Republican Party, has decided to help out the Bush Administration by insisting that waterboarding is not torture, since there is no physical damage to the individual. And that would indicate he is lacking basic understanding of such actions. Torture is not limited to physical harm. You can do a lot of damage by never touching someone.

The reason that torture is not considered a corect tactic is simply because information uncovered during torture is unreliable. Even an innocent person will admit to anything when he just wants the pain to stop.

 

[Chromer]

I'd have to say that torture is so much more worse than death. With torture, the agony and pain that is inflicted on you doesn't end your misery, it only makes you suffer more. If, however, you are killed then you need not feel the pain anymore.

Myself, I am against torture, I don't see why people would be willing to bring total misery upon someone else just to get some information or whatever. I find it a real shame that humans think rather barbarically about these things, as I see that peaceful solutions are never really used.

 

[rtgmath]

QUOTE (Chromer @ Nov 07 2006, 06:37 AM)I don't see why people would be willing to bring total misery upon someone else just to get some information or whatever.
Torture is not simply an information-gathering tool. It is a way to dehumanize your enemy, to assert your superiority over them. It is a way that you can express the dark hatred and contempt you have in your heart toward another human being.

In this respect, torture is similar to rape, and indeed, rape has traditionally been a part of torture.

We saw the sexual humiliation of prisoners at Abu Gharib. You know that there was knowledge of these activities far up the chain of command, and I personally believe that it went to Rumsfeld himself. The ones prosecuted for actually *doing* the torture were not the sole perpetrators of it.


QUOTE I find it a real shame that humans think rather barbarically about these things, as I see that peaceful solutions are never really used.

I agree. But we human beings are indeed a barbarous lot. For all of our fancy toys, we still think that it is better to rule in Hell than to serve in Heaven. The things we *could* do to help others, if we were inclined to, would mean that we would have to take a risk. What if others don't want to play by our rules? What if "peace" means something different to them than it does to us?

And that is a point that the US has not considered in its quest to promote democracy across the globe. Giving people freedom to better themselves also means they have freedom to hurt others. In Iraq, freedom from the oppression of Sadam Hussein has meant that neither Sunna nor Shia are free to worship without fear. Freedom from Saddam's Republican Guards has morphed into something more terrible -- slavery to the terror of your neighbors. It is true that Saddam ran a secular regime that suppressed the completely free expression of their Islamic faith, but now that they are free to express the fullness of their faith, many express it in the murder of others.

I am a religious person, but religion has got to be the most damnable invention of man at times. And think. If you believe that the death of your enemy is going to bring him torture in an eternal hell, then maybe you won't mind giving him a little hell to send him on his way.

As I said, mankind is still a barbarous lot. And with our nuclear and chemical toys, we can do a lot more damage. I wonder if we will survive another thousand years.

Regards,

 

[12kokki]

I can not even begin to comprehend the reason of such a debate. To put ourselves on the same level as terrorist is a pathetic thing. If Americas forefathers where here today there would be war. Such things go against the principles and heart of America. Not many people even realize the true scope of such a law: The Military Commissions Act 2006. Go read it, to torture is just a small amount of it. If you look you can see how they said it is legal to torture small children in front of their parents or how now the Bush Administration can get away with war crimes if ever investigated or how any American citizen can be seen as an enemy combatant and herded off to a secret prison to be tortured. You must read the bill before debating on it.

Cheers!
Tim

 

[Lady_Rin]

I'm a pacifist, that means I don't condone torture or violence of any kind towards others. I don't believe in war yet I married an air force major (when he retired). It took years for me to understand the need for interrogation of enemy troops and intel however I have never understood the need for torture.

What sets us apart from the terrorists and insurgents is a respect for the lives of others, not harming innocents, men and women regrdless of how they think. If we sink to their level, beheadings, torture, rape we are no better than animals, in fact we would be less than animals. The thought that the west, America and Britain, would stoop to such a thing is abhorrent, yet we all know it is really the workings of one man in his quest for power, Mad King George V of America.

I find it hard to believe that our troops at places like Abu Ghraib did such things without being led into it by someone in authroity.

 

[DragonSlaughter]

It Seems To Me That Torture These Days Keeps Getting Worse. In Times Of War We Should Take No Prisoners. But If Information Is Needed We Tend To Mutilate The Very Being Of Ourselves, Lowering To That Of Parasites, Feeding On Our Own Evil. Interrogation Should Be Used As No Sleep, Intense Questioning, Empty Threats, Fear. No, We Take It A Step Further. It Disgusts Me What Humanity Is Turning Into. Bodily Torture Is The Same As Killing Someone. Pain Should Never Be Controlled. It Is By Far The Cruelest Thing In Nature, And In Our Hands Something Much More Deadly Then Our Nuclear Arms. It's Better To Get It Over With Then To Cause Suffering. *Cough* 'Genocide'.

In My Own Opinion, Torture Through Pain Is Horrible, But Not The Worst. It's Torture Through Fear, Mental Anguish.

If You've Ever Watched Foamy The Squirrel's "Sitcom Silliness", You'd Agree That Hanging Someone, Immobilized, Watching A Giant Clock That Slowly Counts Down To Your Death, Would Make Any Normal Person Insane. Telling Them That They're Going To Die In The Most Horribly Painful Way Possible. *Tick, Tick, Tick* Watching, Waiting, Wondering What Will Happen. Can You Imagine It? Can You Feel It? Creeping, Sinking Into Your Core As The Fear Of The Shadow Of Death Slowly Crawls Over You, And Thinking How You're Going To Die Becomes Worse And Worse. Does It Not Make You Crazy Just Thinking About It? Making You Want To Scream?

Hehe.

 

[nick572]

Everyone is going about this the wrong way.

Most people are thinking of this torture as something done for no reaseon, just being crule like burning a cat or dog, picking someone ramdomly of the street and hurting them, stuff like on the movie SAW. That kind of crazy stuff. However in the real world things are a little diffferent.

Let's think of a situation.
A woman is kidnaped. The kidnapper is caught as says he has the woman in a metal room she can not get out of, with no water or food. You know this woman will die in about 5-7 days if she gets no water.
Now lets say all of a sudden its 50 women in the room.
so 50 will die.

Day1
So, you question the man. --get nothing.
Day3
Question the man agin. --- get nothing
day5
He smiles and says he will never tell. he wants to kill them all.
day 6
Now you know this is when they will start to die. what will you do?

Do you think that just asking questions is ok now?

What if its 50 little 5 yearold girls.?

It's time to break out the electric shock, water, baseball bat, anything you can do.

The thing is this type of torture is not something anyone wants to do.
but sometimes it might be neccesary.

 

[DragonSlaughter]

QUOTE (nick572 @ Nov 15 2006, 08:11 PM)The thing is this type of torture is not something anyone wants to do.
but sometimes it might be neccesary.
True.


QUOTE day 6
Now you know this is when they will start to die. what will you do?

Bring the man to the room, then slaughter whoever is in the room, one by one, in a horrible mannor(to those who care, painlessly if you like). If he still does not talk, THEN I suggest torturing him through pain.



In conclusion, I believe that mental torture is much more effective, and to those who wish not degrade themselves to savages, painless and no bodily harm done.

 

[Dragon-of-Rune]

QUOTE (nick572 @ Nov 16 2006, 05:11 AM)Let's think of a situation.
A woman is kidnaped. The kidnapper is caught as says he has the woman in a metal room she can not get out of, with no water or food. You know this woman will die in about 5-7 days if she gets no water.
Now lets say all of a sudden its 50 women in the room.
so 50 will die.

Day1
So, you question the man.  --get nothing.
Day3
Question the man agin.  --- get nothing
day5
He smiles and says he will never tell. he wants to kill them all.
day 6
Now you know this is when they will start to die. what will you do?

Do you think that just asking questions is ok now?

What if its 50 little 5 yearold girls.?

It's time to break out the electric shock, water, baseball bat, anything you can do.

The thing is this type of torture is not something anyone wants to do.
but sometimes it might be neccesary.
Accually if i was the person i charge of the interrogation, i wouldn't care less if it was 1 woman or 50 women. I would still do the same. So let me tell you how i will fill my 5-7 days.

Day1: (nice side)
Stay friendly and question the man/woman (probably will get nothing). Then leave and continue tomorrow.

Day2: (nice side)
Be a little less friendly, put don't show that your getting ticked off (most people kick on that kind off stuff, so they know that what he/she is doing is getting to people), and continue the questioning from the other day. (probably will get nothing). Then leave and continue tomorrow.

Day3: (bad side coming up)
Before going to interrogate the kidnapper, find out as much information as i can about familly and friends and there current where abouts (if he has them). Then go to the room with the kidnapper and start asking questions (probably will still get nothing). This time i don't leave, but ask the other people to leave the room. Then i will disable any sound and video equipment in the room, and close all doors and windows and block them off so nobody can see or hear what i am gona do. Then i will ask him so more questions and with every answer that i don't like, i will threaten him to hunt down all his/her friends and familly, offcourse i will show him the information that i looked up before going to the room. If the person doesn't have any familly or friends, then i will do the following: Keep a straight face and don't lose my temper (because he/she will probably like that), and start beaten the person mentally (in the hope that person cracks). If that still doesn't work i will combine mental and physical beatings on the person.

Day4: (nice/bad side mixed)
Let the person rest from the day before. But i will pay him/her a little visit just to ask if he/she want's to confess or not. If the answer is no, then i will explain in some detail what i will do with the person the next day if he/she doesn't confess. (and that will be compleet torture).

Day5: (evil side)
If we have come to this day then it means that the person still hasn't talked. So i will do the following:
For people that aren't really strong of mind and can't handle some sick things don't read on!!!

You clicked on the spoiler so this must mean you can handle some stuff. So before clicking on the next spoiler, i will explain a little detail about myself before you thing how the hell can he think this all up. I am not a bad person by nature, but because i am a natural thinker (i think about everything all day long, it's on automatic for me) and because of that i also have a lifely imagination (bigger then most people have). Because of the combined think and imagination abillity i can think of ways to rapidly increase of decrease somebody's happyness etc... So don't be scared i am still friendly 

  but i can think of bad ways of doing things 

I am just kidding (for the most part 

) i wrote some horror/thriller story's when i was younger 

This must mean you are pretty sure to read this. Click one more time!

A small 10 step torture plan:
Step 1: Bring him/her to a different location so the person know i mean business, and so the person knows i wasn't lying the other day when i told him/her what i am gona do with him/her.

Step 2: When arrived at the location (only me and the kidnapper) i will handcuff the persons legs and arms. Then around the handcuffs at the wrist i will tie a rope. Then i will left him/her up untill he/she can just stand on the floor.

Step 3: Take out the equipment. A knife, 20 nail's and a gun with 3 clips of ammo.

Step 4: Ask the person one last time if he/she want's to confess or not (answer will probably still be no, even after seeing the equipment).

Step 5: Start with the torture. First i will take off the persons shoe's and socks. Then i will pick up the knife and start cutting there toenails and fingernails of one by one. During that i will ask the person to confess untill all toe and fingernails are removed (person will probably still say nothing).

Step 6: I will put down the knife and pick up the 20 nail's. Then i will ask the person again if he/she want's to confess (probably still no). Then i will slowly press a nail in each finger and toe on the spott where i just removed the toenails and fingernails (this will hurt as hell because it's one of the most censative place's on the human body). After each nail i will ask the person if he/she want's to confess and for every no i will put in a nail untill all twenty are used.

Step 7: Now the person still hasn't confessed so i it's time to pull out the gun with the 3 clips of ammo ( each clip containing 12 bullets, thus a total of 36 bullets). Now here is where the real pain will start. I will start shooting 6 bullets in each of the 6 body parts (2 legs, 2 arms, 1 body and 1 head) I will start at the persons feet and shoot 1 bullet in each feet (2), then i will shoot 1 bullet in above each heel on the backside (4), then i will shoot 1 bullet at each lowerleg (6), then i will shoot one bullet in each kneecap first the front then the back (10), then i will shoot 1 bullet in each upperleg (12, 1st clip empty, 4 body parts left). Then i will ask the person if he/she want's to confess (probably still no)

Step 8: Now i will start doing the same to the arms as i did with the legs. First 1 bullet in each hand (2), then 1 bullet above each wrist (in the opening between the bones)(4), then 1 bullet in each lowerarm (6), then 1 bullet in each elbow first from the back and the from the front (10), then 1 bullet in each upperarm (12, 2nd clip emtpy, 2 body parts left). I will ask again if the person want's to confess (still probably no).

Step 9: Now i will start with the body. I will just hit 6 random places each just missing vitale parts. 1 near the stomach(1), 1 near the liver(2), 1 near each lung (4), 1 near the hart on the left side ( between the ripcase)(5), and 1 in there genitals (just for fun and then i will laugh at the person just to annoy them, even if i am not enjoying this)(6, half a clip left, 1 body part left). Now i will ask for the last time if the person want's to confess (answer is still probably no).

Step 10: Now i will be pretty much pissed. So first i will shoot 1 bullet in each ear(2), then 1 from the left side of that face entering one cheek and exiting the other and the other way around (4). Then i will ask just one more time if the person want's to confess (probably still no). Now i will shoot the last bullet in each eye.


Day 6:
If you read the spoiler, then you will know what has happened. So probably you will have no luck on the finding the woman unless somewhere in the process the person did confess the location.

Day 7:
You have either found the woman or she is dead. Now you are thinking did i really had to do all the things i did to get to the results i have now? Doesn't really matter if you have found her or not, it's still wrong what was done. But if you did found the person then people will not think it was that bad what you have done, because then the end justify's the means.

 

[Anime-Addict]

QUOTE (wittyfox @ Nov 03 2006, 05:16 PM) Not to mention the fact it is virtually impossible to fight a war on terror. Terror is a tactic, a tactic any person, man women or child, can do and from the looks of things will do. How can you ever justify ending this war? Even if Iraq is "freed" and the government becomes firm, wouldn't there still be people who dont like it? or people who are bitter at America for what they did. That would mean there will be a violent circle that cant be ended ever, and the insurgents will just raise up again and America will have to fight yet again

Its hard to fight a war on a country, when you aren't actually fighting its government, and not all its citizens but little gangs that pop up that may or may not be lead by a person that is dead but either way you cant find him.
Yes you are right from the individuals point of view. But look at it ob a broader scale, Look at it tactically as you mentioned earlier. It is true that terrorist activities are virtually impossible to stop full scale. This is because there are no uniforms, no standing armys, no definitive enemy to meet on the battlefield. The major downside is that a terrorist act just has to occur once and people carry on the threat mentally. It is a persistent method of warfare. Before 9/11 no one had a second thought about commercial aircraft travel. It was as safe as walking to work on a busy day. After 9/11 there are constant reminders of what has happened, massive lines, security checkpoints, restrictions, armed guards, ect. This is what makes the threat persistent. Fear. Anything is possible, but if and when it does happen, people assume it can and will happen again. And happen soon. Terrorist activities have the greatest power to weight ratio of any tactic. It takes minimal personnel to hurt a small group of people in a public place. That scares people. More US soldiers die in battle everyday but this is "acceptable" because it is our job? In my opinion it is the duty of EVERY us citizen to defend his or her freedoms and rights they enjoy. It is a very narrow minded view, but realistically if you don't stand up and fight for what makes your lifestyle possible, would that not make you a freeloader? Living off of other peoples hardships, and deaths?

As for the torture aspect, you have to remember that perspective is everything. If all you do is hear about the war on TV you may be disinclined to endorse torture. If you woke up at every explosion and waited to see if the alarm sounded so you could go gear up and defend your own life and those fo your buddys, friends, and familys, you may have a different perspective. Especially when a certain nationality has been attempting to kill you and your friends on a repeated basis, and in some cases succeeded, that very "unethical" torture that may or may not "damage" the enemy person, could provide information that not only saves your life, but that if your best friend or respected leader. Out in the sandbox, it may be preached that we are defending Americas freedom and nonsuch, but when its your life on the line it resolves down to a binary solution set. You live, or you die. So again, in this aspect just keep in mind that you may not fully understand the situation that the question is posed in. How can one dictate another's policy when they are in dissimilar situations?

EDIT: Read further

Interrogation is removing information from a single person to save many. The demographic we are referring to are just as patriotic if not tenfold worse than us. You may or may not have 7 days. You may not have any days. The battlefield is not static, thing change quickly. The enemy is just as human and just as smart as us. That 7 day process may kill an entire squad, or platoon, because someone knew when and where they were going to be. Why are we getting slowly shredded? Because they have brains too, and the KNOW they can get away with it. Keep in mind, and I cannot stress this enough, they are just as smart, just as observernt, just as devious than anyone. Just because they are not the same nationality as you does not make them inferior.

Those 50 children? 50 women? Potential killers all. How much maturity and strength does it take to press a button that blows a hidden explosive, utterly destroying the vehicle that you are traveling in? Could a kid fire a firearm? Yes. Could a woman? Yes. Could the children be employed as listeners, while the women plan? Yes. If Russia invaded your home country and you were a kid, would you hesitate to kill them in any way possible to make them leave? Probably not.

Again, time is of the essence when lives are at stake. If that gentle interrogation method caused your best friend and 12 of his friends to die, what would you think? It all boils down to the simplest of binary solution sets. Us or Them. Which should die?

 

[Bold]

QUOTE (nick572 @ Nov 16 2006, 12:11 AM)Let's think of a situation.
A woman is kidnaped. The kidnapper is caught as says he has the woman in a metal room she can not get out of, with no water or food. You know this woman will die in about 5-7 days if she gets no water.
Now lets say all of a sudden its 50 women in the room.
so 50 will die.

[...]

What if its 50 little 5 yearold girls.? I do find it interesting that you resort to the "save women and children" image to support your opinion.

Anyway, your example does sound extremely moral, ethical and just. But you make a big assumption in it. How do you know you have the right person? And I mean really sure.

Please don't give me the "sometimes it is plain clear that they are guilty". Those situations are extremely rare. The media (mainly the US ones) often present cases as if an accused person was guilty. But police officers, even if they try their best to do a good job can make un-intentional errors.

In your example, the person made a confession he was guilty? Be careful, there are more and more cases of innocent people claiming to be guilty of a crime simply because they believe it will draw attention to them. So a confession is not 100% reliable. You need proofs.

The problem with torture, specially used in terrorist cases, is that it is extremely hard to get proof that the person you are holding is guilty. You can have reasonable suspicion to warrant holding them. But torture means the person, if innocent will say anything simply to stop the pain. After all, what can a person who does not know say? If he says "I did not do it!" you will continue to try to break him. Until he admits it because he wanted it to stop. But in the end, the information you got was false.


QUOTE (Anime-Addict @ Nov 17 2006, 03:21 AM)After 9/11 there are constant reminders of what has happened, massive lines, security checkpoints, restrictions, armed guards, ect. This is what makes the threat persistent. Fear. This is actually why all the anti-US terrorist group have been celebrating for the last few years. By using a dozen people, they were able to make a whole country completely afraid of them. Fear is showed in multiple ways, the most notable is when people change their habits "in case something might happen".

Just think about massive sums of money that were not invested elsewhere to instead have more securities around airplanes. And if you think about it, planes are just one of many ways to carry out a terrorist attack.

The other reason why the anti-US groups are probably happy is because the US actions outside the country have alienated many other people. This means it will probably be easier for those groups to recruit new members.


QUOTE (Anime-Addict @ Nov 17 2006, 03:21 AM)Again, time is of the essence when lives are at stake. If that gentle interrogation method caused your best friend and 12 of his friends to die, what would you think? It all boils down to the simplest of binary solution sets. Us or Them. Which should die? And this is exactly why in civilian law enforcement, policemen are not "all powerful" and they need to get a judge's approval (a warrant) to proceed before doing something that will violate a person's right. (like searching a house, doing wire tapping).

In the military, there is a chain of command that does basically the same thing (at least it is supposed to!). By having people not emotionally involved in the situation make decisions and give orders, you limit the chances of regretful actions to take place.

In the heat of the action, people think in binary solutions and possibilities, because there is an urgency. Sometimes, there is a third options that was not though of. Simply because in an emergency situation, you don't exactly have time to call a meeting with the team, do a brainstorming session and develop new methods!

But if you were presented with extra solutions before the emergency, you can use them fast while in the action.

 

[REYOMA]

Deliberately inflicting severe bodily damage just short of causing death.Torture is ok in a life threating way meaning to save someone or if a bomb is about to go off eg..........There are many pro's and con's about this,the fact is torture will always be wheather we approve of it or not,it's human nature to want to hurt someone in that way cause come on talking does not work,negotiating not really either,threatening maybe but the most certain way to get info is to torture,only what i think though.You either agree or not,the fact still remain's torture will always be around.

 

[AnotherBovine]

QUOTE (Anime-Addict @ Nov 17 2006, 01:21 AM)
Again, time is of the essence when lives are at stake. If that gentle interrogation method caused your best friend and 12 of his friends to die, what would you think? It all boils down to the simplest of binary solution sets. Us or Them. Which should die?

I feel that torture of these people is in fact wrong. However, as a U.S. Marine I can understand why it happens. Being an infantry marine you form a very strong bond with your fellow marines. It is as who I quoted stated, it is "us or them." Also those soldiers or marines who torture probably feel a great deal of hate toward these people who they feel are hostile and who they relate to perhaps having killed one or many of their best friends and comrades. In this way, while I do not condone these actions, I also understand the reasoning behind this and while i have not been to iraq as of yet, I am sure that upon getting there and perhaps seeing my brothers die I myself may feel the same way. However, I also feel very strongly that our public image to the world and especially the Iraqi people is extrememly important and I, hopefully if placed in the situation, will be able to stop it from happening. There's nothing worse I feel than having the people who you are trying to help and even those back home think that you would harm civilians or anyone in this way, it makes you look like the bad guys to those you are trying to help. However I also know that information that I may be able to get from them might save my life and my marines lives. It's sort of crappy position to be in. Do you not torture for information and be seen well in the view of others? Or do you torture, and maybe look bad, but stay alive and save others? I think that in situations like the army's abu graib scandle that they weren't even doing it for information. A situation like that is unnacceptable. Nothing good can come from that. However using it to actually gain information is a different story. Anyway. That's my incoherant ramble on the matter.

 

[C0kaCoLa]

I think it will be the best way to get information from torturing.. Most people cant stand it and even if someone can stand it, we have to keep torturing maybe a few years until he reveal the secret. But we have to keep the person from killing himself or something like that. But also we have to see if the torturing is worth doing. It has to a very important thing to conduct the torturing. If for a simple thing, thentorturing is not acceptable.

 

[InuyashaX]

Torturing is a barbaric way of doing things. People have been doing this for hundreds of years and were still doing it today. I don't support torturing. I think it is inefficient because if your being tortured, you'll say anything to get out of it even if the info is fake or incriminates you whe you had nothing to do with the crime or bad deed. Lets say you dont have any info? What can you do? It is a flawed method that should be abolished.

 

[monsta666]

QUOTE (rtgmath @ Nov 03 2006, 03:50 PM)What do you think "torture" is? Is it ever acceptable? Under what circumstances?

The news is full of horrible doings. People are beheaded in Iraq on an almost daily basis. There have been some few accounts of US and British soldiers acting inappropriately (yes, including torture, murder, rape), but the accounts of Iraqi-on-Iraqi brutality far surpass any harm the US soldiers have been reported to have done.

And in the US, a subtle shift of attitudes is occurring. We are finding an adversary who does not care about the Geneva Conventions and who will not abide by them. Should the US abide by those conventions if the adversary does not?

I would presume he would be incensed if such treatment were given to American captives. But it does bring up an issue. You are fighting for a cause, and you capture someone you think is with the enemy. What do you do?


Torture cannot be justified just because some people do it. Two wrongs don't make a right further more if America is going to gain any respect it must abide by the human rights convention. After all it is America that keeps telling other countries to follow these laws. What message does it send to other countries if America openly breaks these laws?

Extracting information through torture is against human rights so that is reason number one for not torturing people. Reason number two is information retrieved through torture is notoriously inaccurate the Moscow trials under Stalin's rule are proof that people make false confessions when tortured.