Strange Mindsets...

Sanity Panda

-chan
Kouhai
Don't know whether this would be the correct section for this post.
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I'll start with one strange mindset that I've come across.

Many anime have a tendancy to display sadness as a tragic but at the same time it's interpreted as beautiful. Why do we as human have this mindset that it's a nice thing?
Have people ever had the odd sensation where they are down from what has been happening lately but also seem to be attached or take twisted pleasure in the fact that they are in this position?

Has anyone found any other strange mindsets in this society?

Ps. I'm just curious how many people experience this sort of thing in an anime community.
 

EggBeast

- deska`
Retired
Life is beautiful. Joy, sadness, misery, anger, they are all part of what it means to live.

Back in the day (I'm an old, old, old man now, going on 20
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), for whatever reason, I became a very apathetic person, very neutral, extremely passive. I was the most understanding, easy-going, uncaring person around, and I felt very, very, very little emotion. The closest I ever came to being truly happy was no more than being somewhat amused, the closest I got to anger was irritation. To be honest, it wasn't the most enjoyable experience.

I was like this for probably 2 or 3 years. After various self-realizations and a handful of life-changing experiences, well, I started feeling things again, and I came to love seeing things from different perspectives, through different points of view, and through that I came to see things as both beautiful and horrible, but in every case fascinating.

I've learned some awesome stuff through some bouts of depression, fits of rage, awesome-crazy-go-funathons, but not so much through apathy. I suppose that I have come to get some strange sense of satisfaction when I feel down, and at times I've gotten a sickening sensation when I've been feeling up. Sometimes I think too much.

When I see something (i.e. an awesome film or anime) that takes a fresh look at things, and feels genuine, I just get a kick out of it, even if it was completely insane.

...anyways, that's basically my mindset, and I can't really say anything about anyone else's. But regardless, have a fantastic life!
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Dalriada

-dono
Sempai
QUOTE (Sanity Panda @ Nov 17 2007, 04:28 PM) Many anime have a tendancy to display sadness as a tragic but at the same time it's interpreted as beautiful. Why do we as human have this mindset that it's a nice thing?
Aren't you describing a tragedy (in the literary meaning)?

It's limited neither to anime, nor to the current society, since it was theorized by Aristotle more than two millenaries ago (catharsis, yadaa yadaa).
 

Tetsugakusha

-chi
Kouhai
I think it's that exact theme of the happy-tragedy that has pulled me into Anime and I think this is not necessarily an original phenonmena. I'm not sure where you guys are regionally, but this idea that a tragedy has to be a sad event is more of a Western mentality because of the Abrahamic Traditions. There is an overwhelming emphasis on "The End" and it is thought that this is something to be avoided, but at the same time the people that warn of "The End" also state that it is unavoidable with the intent of creating a hopeless atmosphere afterwhich they slip god into the mix as a way to consol the people.

When you compare this idea to that of Eastern Religions there is a major difference (banal statement I know). With the concepts of Karma and Rebirth in traditions like Buddhism and Hinduism there is more of an acceptance and awareness for the way things are. Combine this with an emphasis that is placed on circularity in life and sybiosis with nature and existence and the tragedy begins to lose it's hopeless theme.

Now, of course it's not as black and white as I've conveyed it here; however, keep in mind that Anime is coming out of the East so these factors will come into play, too what extent is another issue.

As to the initial question: why is the "nice" applied to something that is supposed to be thought of as negative? Well, you must first look at your own preconceptions of what's good and bad. Approaching a tragedy with negative thoughts in mind will cause you to be sad. However, when looking at the bigger picture of the event the sadness is only a small part. In a tragedy we have the beautiful nature of life played out for us, the interations of human beings, the chaotic nature of events in this life, the complex emotions that go along with humans and the chaotic nature, and so on. Tragedies play these out and do so in a meaninful way, especially with Anime.

The other aspect that comes into play with the Tragic aspect of some Anime is the fact that the Disney "Happy Ending" is so completely false that it's hard to imagine anyone believing that things turn out that way. In these Anime shows we see the theme play out as we experience it in real life, with the ultimate message being that things are not always going to work out. The important message that a lot of these tragic anime's get across is that you shouldn't be preoccupied with the negative; think not of what you have lost, think about what you had and the memories you were able to develop. This is where the good lies. Again, I think it's more in the vein of "thinking not about what you don't have, think about what you do have".

If you like this stuff I highly recommend Albert Camus' "The Outsider". Existentialism is the way to go if you like this kind of thing.
 

Dalriada

-dono
Sempai
QUOTE I think it's that exact theme of the happy-tragedy that has pulled me into Anime and I think this is not necessarily an original phenonmena. I'm not sure where you guys are regionally, but this idea that a tragedy has to be a sad event is more of a Western mentality because of the Abrahamic Traditions.

I disagree with this statement.
The tragedy on the western world has its roots in Greece (Aeschylus, Sophocles...) and the Roman Empire (Seneca the Younger).
It was rediscovered during the Renaissance and gave the English tragedy in the XVIth century (Shakespeare), then the French tragedy in the XVIIth (Corneille, Racine).

I don't know enough to comment the part on Asian literature.
 

Tetsugakusha

-chi
Kouhai
QUOTE (Dalriada @ Nov 29 2007, 11:36 PM)
I disagree with this statement.
The tragedy on the western world has its roots in Greece (Aeschylus, Sophocles...) and the Roman Empire (Seneca the Younger).
It was rediscovered during the Renaissance and gave the English tragedy in the XVIth century (Shakespeare), then the French tragedy in the XVIIth (Corneille, Racine).

I don't know enough to comment the part on Asian literature.
Thank you for pointing this out, I should have been more accurate regarding what I thought to be the source of the Western Fictional Mentality, specifically the Tragedy. I am intrigued by this link you mention between Greece and Rome to Shakespeare, could you elaborate? I am aware of the stories of Plato, but limited to them as a philosophy major and because if this I'm not very versed in Greek and Roman works.

Although I agree that it is too strong to say the Abrahamic Traditions do not have all the power, it is equally too strong to say that they do not play a role. The West was developed out of the conquests of Christianity and this, in turn, caused many of the "moral" lessons in this tradition to have an influence in the development of Western society. As an element of society, obviously, the story-tellers absorbed some of this, too what extent is what is left to be argued.
 

Dalriada

-dono
Sempai
I'm not really qualified to speak about Shakespeare. I'm French; ze 'orrible english 'as probably already betrayed me. So I've a better knowledge of French literature.

Anyway, during the Renaissance, the knowledge of Latin and Greek among the secual world (The study of Greek in France was almost forbidden, because the Church didn't like that people could read the old versions of the Gospels, cf Erasmus).

So the Antics plays became better-known. The French tragedists of the XVI-XVIIth were inspired a lot by those plays and by Antic history and legends. If you look, the overwhelming majority of the plays of Corneille and Racine (the two most famous tragedists) take place in Greece or in Roma.
It may be less true for Shakespeare, but some plays like Titus Andronicus, Julius Caesar or Antony and Cleopatra make me thing the influences were still quite strong.

Of course, I'm speaking here about the form of the tragedy. I agree with you to say that the underlying morals behind was completly Christian.
 

EggBeast

- deska`
Retired
QUOTE (Tetsugakusha @ Nov 29 2007, 06:11 PM)If you like this stuff I highly recommend Albert Camus' "The Outsider". Existentialism is the way to go if you like this kind of thing.
Dude! I'm all about existentialism! Thanks for el reccomende`!

...I'm not so much following this historical literature stuff going on (although I understand the arguments being made), but going STRAIGHT BACK to the overall topic, I think anything, be it tragic, hilarious, happy, horrific, or otherwise relating to the human experience, can be seen as beautiful. By relating art (be it on canvas, CD, in-person, or in .mkv format
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) to our own lives and thus learn more about ourselves and others, we truly see what beauty is. Not everyone has to see it the same way, but that doesn't make something any less meaningful.

...some people don't think so hard about it. Some people see something sad, feel sad, and therefore dislike it. Some people just don't see the beauty of things
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.

...but some people see beauty in all kinds of crazy stuff!!! I'm talking some super-trippy , brain-defying craziness! Anything can inspire someone, and if they're inspired to make a movie, orchestrate a song, or write some prose, some people could think they're seriously nuts, but that doesn't mean the beauty isn't there (somewhere, deep, deep inside
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)

...Arregato-kozimasu!!! (butchered, I know, but you get my point!)
 

julez

-chibi
Retired
QUOTE (EggBeast @ Nov 30 2007, 12:12 PM) ...I'm not so much following this historical literature stuff going on (although I understand the arguments being made)
THANKYOU! I thought I was the only one out of the loop. I never studied historical literature, just Shakespeare.. and I'm a psych major so I can't really bring up examples from history... I'll just give my own opinion
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Why do we see sad things as beautiful, for example in anime? That's an interesting question. I'm reminded of how much I cried near the end of Air, and yet still thought of it as a beautiful anime. The same thing happened when I saw Grave of the Fireflies, which in my opinion is the saddest anime movie EVER, if you haven't seen it I highly recommend you do!
Why did I think these animes were so beautiful? It's because they evoked such strong feelings from me. I felt so connected to the characters and my heart broke watching their story unfold and end in tragedy. I think it's the fact that it made me FEEL something, in turn makes me appreciate it as something beautiful... and also I think that even though what happened was sad, it had such a strong impact on me it was almost poetic.


QUOTE (Sanity Panda @ Nov 17 2007, 11:28 PM)
Have people ever had the odd sensation where they are down from what has been happening lately but also seem to be attached or take twisted pleasure in the fact that they are in this position?

This is interesting. I've been down because of something shitty that has happened to me recently, but I feel quite the opposite. I want to get out of this state, I want to go back to the way I was before... it's just the whole "letting go of somebody" state, and I know I just have to let it run it's course, and eventually I'll be back to my GENKI self. HOWEVER. In the past, in highschool I was depressed, and I think I did feel some twisted pleasure... because I liked how people were jumping around for me... the teachers offering to extend deadlines, my friends constantly paying attention to me, and asking if I was alright... my parents giving me space
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yeah... those were the days! Depression had it's perks all right
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but I grew out of that thank god... much like Eggbeast said somewhere up there, through life experiences and rethinking who I am... I just changed. I grew up... I evolved... and I don't think that process is over yet, I'm only 23 and I have lots of evolving lying ahead of me
 

EggBeast

- deska`
Retired
Oh, I was just thinking about something along the lines of strange mindsets (not really related to tragedy, though).

I just finished about 6 hours of a math project, and by the end my mind was completely drained, plus I had quite a headache to boot. I turned on the lights to my kitchen, and my eyes BURNED, and ached my head quite badly. Anyways, I turned on some loud techno music (Rise, anyone?
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), and it hurt my head like crazy, but I kept listening until my headache turned more into a dull numbness.

With some headaches I get, I just need to get away from all light and noise (those blow!!!), but others I can drown it out with excessively loud music.

...am I just completely insane?
 

Tetsugakusha

-chi
Kouhai
QUOTE (EggBeast @ Dec 01 2007, 09:26 PM) Oh, I was just thinking about something along the lines of strange mindsets (not really related to tragedy, though).

I just finished about 6 hours of a math project, and by the end my mind was completely drained, plus I had quite a headache to boot. I turned on the lights to my kitchen, and my eyes BURNED, and ached my head quite badly. Anyways, I turned on some loud techno music (Rise, anyone?
tongue.gif
), and it hurt my head like crazy, but I kept listening until my headache turned more into a dull numbness.

With some headaches I get, I just need to get away from all light and noise (those blow!!!), but others I can drown it out with excessively loud music.

...am I just completely insane?
Yep, definitely...you people and your math...
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Says the philosopher
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Anyways, well there are headaches that are sensitive to external stimulus, I think they're migrains? Never had one so I'm not too sure. As for the other type, I kinda thing that it has to do with your mind and the fact it doesn't enjoy doing only one thing for an extended period of time. So, once you reach a certain point it just says "okay brain, fire up the head ache...get this guy doing something else." I've had the same thing happen if I write too long...some anime, Opeth, or video games (has to be an action orientated one) usually takes care of mine.

That's why cramming is the worst thing you can do for studying...your mind will just close down after a while. I think it's for every hour you study you should take a 15 minute break? Not sure on that.
 

Dalriada

-dono
Sempai
QUOTE (Tetsugakusha @ Dec 04 2007, 12:23 PM) I've had the same thing happen if I write too long...some anime, Opeth, or video games (has to be an action orientated one) usually takes care of mine.

About the videogames, the reason can be other: some (action-oriented) videogames can make sensitive people "seasick". There's a gap between the visual input (moving a lot) and the equilibrium input (staying still), so the brain doesn't understand.

But we're wandering really far from the subject of the thread.
 

julez

-chibi
Retired
QUOTE (EggBeast @ Dec 02 2007, 05:26 AM) I just finished about 6 hours of a math project, and by the end my mind was completely drained, plus I had quite a headache to boot. I turned on the lights to my kitchen, and my eyes BURNED, and ached my head quite badly. Anyways, I turned on some loud techno music (Rise, anyone?
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), and it hurt my head like crazy, but I kept listening until my headache turned more into a dull numbness.

this made me think of listening to sad DEPRESSING music (Antony and the Johnsons, Radiohead, Tori Amos) when I'm already depressed... makes me even sadder to the point of crying... after awhile though I enter this numb state, after I've let everything go and it feels kinda nice. It's something I do a lot when I'm sad, and I like doing it... I find it quite therapeutic actually.
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EggBeast

- deska`
Retired
QUOTE (julezia @ Dec 05 2007, 09:16 AM) this made me think of listening to sad DEPRESSING music (Antony and the Johnsons, Radiohead, Tori Amos) when I'm already depressed... makes me even sadder to the point of crying... after awhile though I enter this numb state, after I've let everything go and it feels kinda nice. It's something I do a lot when I'm sad, and I like doing it... I find it quite therapeutic actually.
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ooh, I agree with that. What I actually do when I'm feeling down depends more upon the "flavor" of the depression I guess. Sometimes, if I'm feeling lame for a lame reason, I'll do a nice workout, listen to some upbeat music, and just relax for a while. If I'm genuinely down for a genuinely good reason, then I'll usually just flow with it. Listen to some depressing music (Mad World, anyone?), watch a depressing movie, think about mind-blowingly depressing stuff. It's nice to just "give in" to your feelings every now and then, as opposed to fighting them.

...yeah. I don't now if that would be considered a "strange" mindset, but hey, it's a mindset nonetheless.
 

Gustav1976

-sama
Retired
the source of the enjoyment in being in a depressive state could be linked to the same way we enjoy jokes which are based on our intellectual understanding on an incongruancy.ie.something that is but shouldn't be. The sense of irony whilst being part of the depression also detracts slightly from the psychological pain as it distracts our attention.
The source of Western entertanment, Greek theatre, was never actually designed as a source of entertainment but as a forum for getting the audience to think about various scenarios and situations, the audience were forced to face situations both pleasurable ad uncomfortable in order that the enactment would cause them to think about what they saw and heard.
Personally I enjoy being side because in this day and age it is all too easy to feel numb but feeling sad as well as the chance to feel happy reminds me that i have feelings and am alive.
Sadness and pleasure are both also a part of the bodies way of relieving emotional or physical stress.
How many times have we been told not to "bottle it up" or to "let it go"?
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EggBeast

- deska`
Retired
QUOTE (Gustl1976 @ Feb 04 2008, 08:53 AM) How many times have we been told not to "bottle it up" or to "let it go"?
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*sigh* it's true. Numbness is total bane. Numbness is unnatural. Feeling anything is better than feeling nothing. I've gone through a phase in life during which I didn't feel... anything. I'd "bottle my emotions" without even realizing it. I'd gotten to a point where I didn't even think I could feel real emotions anymore. Thank god (or rather, thank goodness
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) that it was a phase, albeit a very long phase.

No emotions are bad. Then again, emotions aren't necessarily good, either. It's all about experiencing life. Feel what you will, and enjoy the ride! Or don't enjoy it, that's fine too! Just don't be passive! Being passive is brutal!

...but of course being over-emotional is just plain annoying...

...maybe I should stop there
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khael

/人◕ ‿‿ ◕人\ being M
Sempai
QUOTE Feeling anything is better than feeling nothing.

Are you sure? Because i'd rather be numb than feel only anger... Yep, i seldom feel, most of the time i can describe myself as calm but then when people ask me who do i feel i'm like "fine" or "normal" or something like that... I've got anger issues and when i'm not angry i'm neither happy nor sad... I really can't describe it... [Yes i've gone to a shrink and she told me i have some whatchamacalit mental instability.]

I agree with Dalraida, i guess it has something to do with that "catharsis" thing. I remember picking it up on literature before we tackled drama [comedy and tragedy]...
 

EggBeast

- deska`
Retired
hmm, I'm kind of the complete opposite. I'm a very, very mellow person. The last time I got angry, and I mean really, genuinely angry, was... I think it's 2 years ago now. Yeah, I get irritated, ticked off at times, but rarely does it lead to full-blown rage.

But that's not to say that I don't feel anything while I'm being my mellow self. I tend to get a "mood of the day". I don't have to go with it, because hey, it's just a passing emotion, but it's nice to give in now and again, isn't it?

Anyways, I don't know about many mental instabilities, but that totally adds an entirely new dimension to the discussion, which is totally awesome, and verifies all the more where we get and how we enjoy all these "strange mindsets". Stuff like this is dang interesting.
 

khael

/人◕ ‿‿ ◕人\ being M
Sempai
Yep, like sadism, masochism, etc.

Sadists like seeing others suffer.

Masochists like to suffer.

I don't know how these mindsets are related to catharsis but anyhow i'd say i'm a sadist [heck i LOL at Higurashi when they kill each other...]. Yeah being a sadist i have this guilty pleasure when seeing others suffer [but of course out of respect i keep it to myself]. Anyone has any idea what mental instabilities and these two [sadism and masochism] imply?
 

Agaidos

-chan
Kouhai
a mindset is dependent on the person, what they accept, what they've denied and how that plays in their social attitude.some people are different, events have shaped them into something different, or skiwed and drastically effected their points of view.personally, i think some of the strangest mindsets come with people that are most confused and unable to make decisive decisions and react based purely on emotion rather than logic.im sure behind all of that, theres a mindfull reason but really, strange.

and really, i dont understand the whole, enjoying pain in anyway.maybe its a release from emotional pain, since that can really be endless as to where physical pain is temporary.maybe to them its some sort of conversion.lol i dunno.im relateing this to suicidal tendencies or behaviour of a depressed child.
QUOTE (khael @ Feb 05 2008, 09:40 AM)QUOTE Feeling anything is better than feeling nothing.

Are you sure? Because i'd rather be numb than feel only anger... Yep, i seldom feel, most of the time i can describe myself as calm but then when people ask me who do i feel i'm like "fine" or "normal" or something like that... I've got anger issues and when i'm not angry i'm neither happy nor sad... I really can't describe it... [Yes i've gone to a shrink and she told me i have some whatchamacalit mental instability.]

I agree with Dalraida, i guess it has something to do with that "catharsis" thing. I remember picking it up on literature before we tackled drama [comedy and tragedy]...

i think he was trying to point out, that its best to have some form of emotion, not related to anger, but not absolutely limited to happiness in the sense of it being somehow gratifyeing or actually makeing life more pleasent.would being absolutely apathetic be something you could live with?hell if you call that liveing.
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i think this borders around, your nature and when this can be considered acceptable or unacceptable.
 
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