Privacy on the internet


Ad: Buy Girls Und Panzer Merch from Play Asia!
B

Bold

-kenja sama
Retired
This is a new debating thread on an issue that is touching us (the new generation) like it never touched those that came before us.

What do you think about the privacy of information on the internet? Where does privacy stops, and what kind of information is "trivial" information?

Let's start with the free mail system by google, GMail. Sometimes ago, they recrote their user licence and admitted that they are recording and keeping all messages going througth gmail for an indefinate amount of time. They also confirmed that they would comply with any legal demand to hand over such information (meaning, information request under the patriot act, anti drug laws and anti-organided crime laws).

Google also admitted that all their system could be used to record, collect and keep information about their users. In other words, if you type something in google talk, it might be recorded by google and they might sell the information. The pictures of your girlfriend that you sent using you gmail account to your friend could be viewed by any number of google employees, anyone working in an official position in the US govermement or someone working for a company google decided to sell the info to.

Here are more info about it:
http://www.google-watch.org/gmail.html
http://www.templetons.com/brad/gmail.html

Personnaly, it makes me very cautious about usign google's services and lights on some warning lights in my head. The question is, who agrees with such practices and why or why not?

And before someone asks, no this is not a paranoia thread. It is to start a serious deiscussion about information usage, what is acceptable and what is not. And most importantly what impact does such practices have and will have on our lives.
 
then does that mean I CAN'T TYPE "LOLI" OR "ECCHI" ON GOOGLE ANYMORE!? ...luckily i don't use gmail.com
 
Personly I dont really care. Email is not secure, it doesnt care who's email service you use. If you want to send something you dont want others to see, dont use email. Or atleast encrypt it.

Also I dont live in the UK or US. The FBI, CIA, whoever dont have any jurisdiction over me. So even if I say the wrong thing they cant do anything. The worst thing that can happen is that they contact our police, and to tell the truth, even if you call our version of 911 you dont get an answer some of the time. Our police is too busy with 60 murders a day to bother over something like that.

On the moral issue, it surely isnt right to keep other peoples info without their knowlage. Even if its said to help in investigations.
 
I heard something like this before, about google being able to build a profile up on users by there IP address and search habits.
But i dont think google has yet to divulge any major information relating to any one/'group' of ppl. unlike msn and yahoo which recently handed over several of these profiles to the US government, to help them get ppl like MKK.
Didnt realise they did that with gmail though
sad.gif
, luckly only two ppl know my gmail account. one is the friend that invited me and the other is my mum, to stop her spamming the hell out of my hotmail account.

But here its illegal to open (normal) mail thats not addressed to you, so i dont see why google should be aloud to have a wonder though my emails.

on a different note is the price of selling somepersonal/surfing habits to a random company who'll use it for stats and marketing purpose, that greater price to pay considering the use and convience of google?
 
QUOTE (ultima2096 @ Mar 4 2006, 12:19 AM)But here its illegal to open (normal) mail thats not addressed to you, so i dont see why google should be aloud to have a wonder though my emails. Most countries have laws to protect regular mail. In both US and Canada, it requires a court order signed by a judge to open mail. But e-mail are not covered by that law and probably never will.

On a side note, you said "here". Do not forget that google, is only liable to the laws in existance where they either have corporate offices or where they host their servers. Their liability under local laws of their clients is mostly a grey area when it comes to internet services like gmail.


QUOTE (ultima2096 @ Mar 4 2006, 12:19 AM)on a different note is the price of selling somepersonal/surfing habits to a random company who'll use it for stats and marketing purpose, that greater price to pay considering the use and convience of google? You are talking about statistical non-user identifiable information. I am talking about information directly linkable to a precise individual. Not the same at all.


QUOTE (PsiPyro)Personly I dont really care. Email is not secure, it doesnt care who's email service you use. If you want to send something you dont want others to see, dont use email. Or atleast encrypt it. No one ever said emails were secured. But ther is a difference to using a technology that could potentiolly be compromized and using a system that is systematicly spying, filtering, etc.

As for not caring, you are right in a certain aspect. But you forget two important scenarios.
1- You need to travel to another country for a business trip. What if that country has an information sharing treaty with the US (like all NATO members and many other) and using that information, they arrest you when you enter the country. There is no garanty that they won't mis-understand what you wrote in your e-mail and think that you are up to somethig illigal.
2- Information collection, in a more wide case is not only available to govermements. Goverments are not the biggest evil. Normally, a goverment is trustwordy. But what about the individual working there? Can you trust them all? Would you really want any of your neighboors to be able to acces your e-mail because they happend to work at a goverment job?

If you belive the second is a remote possiblity, it is not. About 4 or 5 years ago, there was a problem in Quebec with an organized crime group who was killing people owning them money while those people were home. It was later found out that someone working at the driver licence ministry was providing those group with the address of their target.
 
Company - 'I want all emails from that ultima guy'
Google - 'money?'
Company - 'here'
Google - 'okay, abuse this anyway u wish'
Company - 'HAHAHA, now i can look at pictures of ultimas girlfriend and read his emails from his mum, oh but wait ive never met the guy and he doesnt know im specifically targetting him, so why does he care'

Now, i'm not calling myself shakespeare but this is going to be pretty true for 99.999% of the time. If i write an e-mail 'mike, meet me at the airport when i arrive and bring 'the bomb'", then the police turn up 'ultima, your under arrest for arms dealing', well im busted. or if its a misunderstanding and 'the bomb' is just a cd from a band i like then they leave me alone.

QUOTE If you belive the second is a remote possiblity, it is not. About 4 or 5 years ago, there was a problem in Quebec with an organized crime group who was killing people owning them money while those people were home. It was later found out that someone working at the driver licence ministry was providing those group with the address of their target.
the guys should of just payed up!!


QUOTE On a side note, you said "here". Do not forget that google, is only liable to the laws in existance where they either have corporate offices or where they host their servers. Their liability under local laws of their clients is mostly a grey area when it comes to internet services like gmail.
this is true, so i guess u win this one.
 
google's been branching out with their free services so rapidly, one of these days google will simply overthrow the largest powers in the world and form an enormous new state, the republic of google. it'll be ok though, there'll be all kinds of free stuff, a good healthcare system, no taxes, and only a few people will mysteriously disappear. i don't care if google is watching me, so i'll be fine with it. the biggest problem will be the damn flag, you'll have to get a new one everytime there's a stupid holiday because they always have those stupid sketches in the logo.
 
you got a point, they might raise their own army soon o.o , with a big google logo on their helmet..with incredible intelligence skills, because they posses the strongest search engine in the world O.O RUN FOR YOUR LIIIVES
 
a ROBOT ARMY. awesome! i'm gonna be a proud resident of the people's republic of google.

ehem anyway there's no privacy on the internet, right? i've just given up on it. if you really want privacy, don't use the internet. moreover, what are you people doing that you wouldn't want people to know?!
 
QUOTE (ben-sama @ Mar 4 2006, 03:17 PM) moreover, what are you people doing that you wouldn't want people to know?!
That is not the point. Saying that when you got nothing to hide, you should not mind is stupid. You have to realize the power of information.
1- There are always things you don't want everyone to know. Otherwise, why do you wear cloths in public? and why do you have a door on your room? Its not because you are doing something bad. It is simply you want privacy.

2- I will give you an idea of what I can do with information in Canada. I get the name, birth date and adress of someone. With that information, I can ask for a "replacement" social security card. With that card and the other info, I can ask for a drivers license. Once you got those, you can get any credit card in the name of that person. Guess who will receive a BIG bill at the end of the month?
Stealiong identity is easily doable and has been done many times.

3- We again come to interpertation of what you say. If you send a message saying -> "Mike, I will meet you at the airport with the package then you can go have a nice time with your little sister"
Package sure sounds suspicious, might be a bomb! "Little siste" is a know term used by pedophile groups to refer to the girls the abuse. So you go to the airport and the police arrests you under charges of terorism and pedophilia.
You are eventually found not guilty of both charges, but you spent a few days, possibly a few weeks in jail. And everyone knows you got arrested for sexual arrassement charges. Most people will belive you might have been guilty but were able to get away.

There is a big difference between 2 cases:
1- reading someone's mail and private information when you have suspicion on someone and asked a judge to sign a warrant to investigate that person
2- Using "random" check "just in case" he was doing something bad. The potential implication are extremely serious and it can destroy your life, even if you have done nothing bad.
 
QUOTE There are always things you don't want everyone to know. Otherwise, why do you wear cloths in public?
if you don't want to be seen naked, stop sending pornographic photos all over the internets!

QUOTE Stealiong identity is easily doable and has been done many times.
you make identity theft sound unbelievably simple. in fact, why even use the internet? i know lots of people's names, addresses, and birthdates. you wouldn't just tell someone all your credit card information in person, so why would you do it online?

QUOTE "Mike, I will meet you at the airport with the package then you can go have a nice time with your little sister"
a terrorist and a pedophile? better check that guy out...
 
QUOTE (ben-sama @ Mar 4 2006, 03:55 PM) i know lots of people's names, addresses, and birthdates. you wouldn't just tell someone all your credit card information in person, so why would you do it online
You don't tell the credit card info. The point is I can get a new card that information as if I was you. But I agree with you, it is not that easy, but it is not that much harder.

The idea is not to become paranoid. But to understand the power and value of information. To simply realize that every time you give an information, it is recorded some place you have no control over. The biggest problem is having information crossing and information that is freely distributable.

For instance, everytime you go to radio shck to buy a 2$ battery, they are asking for name, address and phone number?? Why is that. In it self, it is not top secret information. But why would I allow other people, namely every radio shack emplee, to know who I am and where I live?

Of course radio shack is not going to take over the world. That is not the idea. The question is not why not. The question is why.

One last example.
A few years before the Rwanda genocide, someone had the idea of adding ethnic origine to identity cards to make better statistics. Result? When the conflict happend, the Hutu used that information to do a very efficient sweep and make sure to not miss a single Tutsi house. That information was one of the biggest reason the genocide was so "efficient"

I am not saying someone is trying to kill us or to take over the world. What I am saying is that information is a VERY powerfull tool and most people should start to realize it. And should start asking the question -> WHY should I give that information. And saying it is "required by the system" is not an acceptable answer.

Again, the question is not why not. The question is why.
 
All you guys that are attcking google, you should remember that they did not hand over the information to US gov. about what people are searching and who is searching using the search engine, unlike MSN or Yahoo who did hand out the informaion th the GOV.(it was one of the two, I don't remember which one
ph34r.gif
)
 
QUOTE (neutrality @ Mar 5 2006, 11:32 PM)All you guys that are attcking google, you should remember that they did not hand over the information to US gov. So your reasonning is that it is better for a private company bound only by current laws (which were not writen in the technology world we curently live in) to record and have access to large amount of information on massess of individual?

Personnaly, I have more trust in the goverment (even the US goverment) than a private company. Because at the end of the day, when a scandal is discovered, there is a minister that is going to act since he is liable before the population.

Again the idea is not to be paranoid but to be councious. Not act like the guy I saw the other day talking about biometric identification. On the privacy concern, his final analysis was, we don't live in a private world, so there is no point in trying to keep anything private. This kind o over simplification and uncouncisness is dangerous because those people don't realize what they have done before it is actually too late.

When IBM was building an information management system for Germany around 1937 (don't remember the exact date), it was simply because they were asked by the nice german leader. A very polite man named Hitler. None of the engineers ever taugth they were actualy going to help the nazi catalog, track and kill every jew in europe.

Awareness and understanding is the key
 
I have no credit card or anything that could be used without my express consent. I, therefore, am anonymous.
Currently, I have dynamic IP adressing, and will for the forseeable future. Again, I am anonymous.

I disagree that google should keep data indefinitely. It's their service and their terms you use, so they can. They should catalog the contents as: "text with picture attached" and keep it locked up until a judge or higher power with such power signs a warrant for that information. The catalogued contents should be made available, and on further legal action, the entire contents of the message.

I do not engage in anything illegal that could get me into trouble. Even if I did, you'd need to kidnap me to the US to do anything about it. Our government is a bunch of useless beurocrats who are corrupt. Ditto for our police. There should be anonymity on the internet, but with enough reason, details should be available.
 
QUOTE (Redshift 6 @ Mar 6 2006, 11:43 AM)but with enough reason, details should be available.
Totally agree. I mean, the idea is by no mean to protect the criminals! The idea is to protect the innocent citizen and make sure they are not mistakenly taken for a criminal because of information mis-use.

--
I have yet another example that happend to me today. I was coming back from my skie trip. It is about 9h30PM, so its dark. I see a car in front of me with all ligths off (except for his front ones) When I get behind him, I flash my lights a few times, but he either does not see me or does not understand what I want to tell him. So I take my cell phone and call the highway patrol. I tell there where I am and the situation. At the end, they say they will try to send someone to warn the guy he should fix the lights. Then he asks me for my name.

Why would I need to identify myself? I am not calling because the guy did something to me. I am calling because he might have a burned breaker, but he might also be completely drunk. In the last case, he definatly needs to be stopped before he kills someone! Why would I, the honest citizen trying to help keep our roads safe, have to identify myself?

I was not doing anything illigal, but there no point in providing more information than necessary. I cannot see any good and legetimate use of that information.
 
QUOTE (Bold @ Mar 7 2006, 05:55 AM) Totally agree. I mean, the idea is by no mean to protect the criminals! The idea is to protect the innocent citizen and make sure they are not mistakenly taken for a criminal because of information mis-use.

--
I have yet another example that happend to me today. I was coming back from my skie trip. It is about 9h30PM, so its dark. I see a car in front of me with all ligths off (except for his front ones) When I get behind him, I flash my lights a few times, but he either does not see me or does not understand what I want to tell him. So I take my cell phone and call the highway patrol. I tell there where I am and the situation. At the end, they say they will try to send someone to warn the guy he should fix the lights. Then he asks me for my name.

Why would I need to identify myself? I am not calling because the guy did something to me. I am calling because he might have a burned breaker, but he might also be completely drunk. In the last case, he definatly needs to be stopped before he kills someone! Why would I, the honest citizen trying to help keep our roads safe, have to identify myself?

I was not doing anything illigal, but there no point in providing more information than necessary. I cannot see any good and legetimate use of that information.
But how are they supposed to know you ain't just calling them out as a prank or something?
Besides, if you don't want them to know your name than just tell them some name you made up
 
QUOTE (Daedroth @ Mar 7 2006, 01:10 AM)Besides, if you don't want them to know your name than just tell them some name you made up I simply told them it was "an unneeded information" and did not tell them. The point is, why would they ask something like that? Simply because someone, never thougth of the reason to ask and what that information could be used for. They figured, why not ask it.

Again it is the why not question instead of the why question.


QUOTE (Daedroth) But how are they supposed to know you ain't just calling them out as a prank or something? How does my name help with that?? As you just said yourself, I can give a phony name.
 
Yes, i would like privacy too, but i guess now is impossible. however, I dont believe its that big deal, I mean, since the telephone, people can hear your conversation, and also the governmet, however I dont belive they listen to every chit chat, and it´s the same in the internet. I ca´t belive peolple listen to all conversations, they can track you by the sites you visit or something like that but I realy think no one will be interested on me being an otaku for the sites i visit for example
 
QUOTE (Bold @ Mar 6 2006, 05:35 AM) So your reasonning is that it is better for a private company bound only by current laws (which were not writen in the technology world we curently live in) to record and have access to large amount of information on massess of individual?


No that is not my reasonning. What I'm saying is that if you have a problem with what google is doing, just don't use it. You still have that choice, also there shouldn't that big of a deal as long as you don't do anything that you feel guilty about.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Playasia - Play-Asia.com: Online Shopping for Digital Codes, Video Games, Toys, Music, Electronics & more
Back
Top