Mafia Discussion Thread

[Nioki]

Well since the mafia game is pretty fun, but 'dying' sort of prevents you from even discussing the game in the game thread, since they cant talk anymore while the game is in progress. I believe this thread has potential, especially now that the game has approached a stage when even more 'deaths' are bound to happen. Plus anyone who is watching the game is invited to discuss as well.

I also think that a rule compilation\FAQ for the FTV version of the game can be put up here if dchaosblade, the game master, doesn't mind, since, some rules are thrown around the game thread making them harder to spot, plus some rule corrections, additions might happen and it'll be easier to put them up here.

But once again, this place is for discussion of the Mafia game in general. All in-progress game related things for those still in the game should be in the game thread and via PM in accordance to the rules depending on your role.

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THOSE STILL IN GAME DO NOT READ THREAD BEYOND NEXT POST PLEASE.
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[dchaosblade]

This is fine. I only add two requirements:
Any currently living player caught viewing this thread will be immediately removed from the game.

If you are in this thread as a dead player, you may NOT reveal the identity of anyone's Role other than your own. That means Mafia members may not say who their compatriots in crime are (though they may say how many there are), etc.



Rules

Basic Roles:
These Roles will be included in every game
Mafia
During the night cycle, the Mafia members consult with one another and select a player to kill. The Mafia members MUST decide unanimously (all agree on the same person). During the Day cycle, they do as they wish.
Sheriff
During the night cycle, the Sheriff may select any player, and the Narrator (me) will tell them if that person is a Mafia member or not. During the day cycle, the Sheriff generally tries to convince townspeople of the Mafia member's guilt.
Doctor
During the night cycle, the Doctor may select any player. If the Mafia selects the same player to kill that night, that player is saved. Otherwise, the 'save' is 'wasted'. They cannot protect the same person twice in a row. During the day cycle, the Doctor does as they want.

Additional roles:
These Roles may or may not be included in future games. The GM may or may not let players know that these Roles have been included. The only player who will know if the role is included is the one who is assigned the role (unless the Role includes the fact that they are unaware)
Therapist
During the night cycle, the Therapist may select any player. This player is 'silenced': This means that during the following day cycle, that player will not be able to discuss or vote for a lynching.
Vigilante
Each night, the Vigilante may kill another player (by sending their name to the Moderator). The Vigilante is on the Town's side.
Serial Killer
Like the Vigilante, they may kill another player each Night (by sending their name to the Moderator). However, the Serial Killer is not on the Town's side nor the Mafia's side. The Serial Killer wins when everyone else is dead.
Inventor
This player is on the town side. They are provided a number of single-use "items" that they may use (either at night or during the day). The items may have obvious effects, or may not be known. Examples: An item allowing them to investigate, an item allowing them to protect someone, an item allowing him to role-block someone, etc.
Role Blocker (Often known as the 'gypsy')
These players are able to prevent other Roles from using their power. They can be on either the Innocent or Mafia side. If on the Innocent side, they are able to prevent Mafia kills. If this role is implemented, there will also be changes to how Mafia kills occur (see Godfather).
The Godfather
The mafia leader. When investigated by the Sheriff, they appear as innocent despite being a mafia member. This player will 'send in' the kill order for Mafia, and name the mafia member who will commit the 'hit'. As such, if a Role Blocker blocks either the Godfather or the Mafia member who's going to commit the hit, the kill is prevented. Due to this, Mafia members don't have to be in agreement, the Godfather makes the final choice (if (s)he's still alive).
Traitor
This member is Mafia aligned, but is NOT a member of the Mafia, and they don't know who is in the Mafia. They appear as innocent, and have investigative abilities similar to the Sheriff. They cannot speak privately to the Mafia unless they are recruited (Mafia must sacrifice a night-kill in order to recruit the Traitor) at which point they lose the ability to investigate. If they are not recruited, they are not counted amongst the Mafia's numbers for checks for a Mafia loss (in other words, if all other Mafia members are dead, the Mafia loses even if the Traitor is still alive).
Stool-pigeon
An alternative to the Traitor. The stool pigeon knows who all the Mafia members are, but the Mafia do not know who the Stool Pigeon is. The Stool Pigeon is Mafia-alligned, appears innocent, and cannot participate in Mafia activities. They cannot be recruited and do not have investigative abilities like the Traitor does. They lose when all the regular Mafia members die, and win when the Mafia wins.
Miller
An innocent on the Town's side. However, if investigated by the Sheriff, this player appears to be guilty. The Miller does NOT know that they are the Miller, they think they are just a regular Townie.
Berserker
An innocent on the Town's side. If the Berserk is attacked at night (by either the Mafia, Vigilante, or Serial Killer), then both he and the attacker die (If I'm going down, I'm taking you with me!!) - the Berserker knows his/her Role.
Bullet Proof
Any player may be wearing a bulletproof vest (including those who already have a special Role). The bulletproof vest protects them from being killed ONCE in the night by either Mafia or Vigilante - NOT the Serial Killer (who tends to like his kills up close and personal) nor from lynching. The player with the vest may or may not be aware that they have the ability.


General Rules:

• Use the honor system! No cheating! (But lying in game is allowed, just not to the GM
  
  )
• If you die, you are not allowed to participate anymore at all! You may, however go to the Mafia Discussion Thread to discuss the game.
• Players may not edit their posts. Double posting IS allowed. Editing is NOT (not even for typos!).
• Players may NOT PM (or otherwise communicate in private with) other players regarding the game at any time - regardless of your role and what cycle (night or day) it is.
• No discussion is allowed in the game thread during the Night cycle. During the day cycle, only players are allowed to post - and only if they are still alive and not silenced.
• Surviving players may NOT view the Mafia Discussion Thread. If they are caught viewing it, they will immediately be removed from the game.

Night Cycle

• Night cycle will begin immediately after a lynching.
• Night cycle will last until the Midnight (EST) of the NEXT day, or after all Roles have PM'd the GM their selections.. As such, players with special Roles (including Mafia) will have at minimum 24 hours to contact the GM, but depending on when a majority vote is made they could have as much as 47 hours
• No discussion is allowed at all in the game thread during night cycle.
• All surviving Mafia members must PM the Narrator with who they'd like to murder.
• After the GM receives the votes from Mafia members, if the votes are all for the same person, that person will be killed.
• After the GM receives the votes from Mafia members, if the votes are for different people, they will be forwarded to all other Mafia members. They will then have the opportunity to contact the GM saying they wish to change their vote to agree with eachother.
• If no Mafia member changes their mind (or if they don't reply in time), then I will randomly select one of the targets to be killed by flipping a coin
• All players with special Roles must contact the Narrator during the night cycle. The Narrator will not generally PM these players asking them - players are responsible for this themselves.

Day Cycle

• Day cycle will last until a majority vote for a lynch (including "no lynch") has been reached and will end IMMEDIATELY after said majority is reached.
• During the day cycle, all surviving players may talk and discuss however they want in the game thread. Just avoid profanity and flaming please.
• During the day cycle, a vote will be taken on who - if anyone - the townspeople wish to lynch. Everyone alive may vote regardless of Role unless they were silenced.
• A lynching will take place when more than 50% (majority) of the surviving players vote on the same person.
• The narrator will PM all players with special Roles with the results of his/her power-usage at the beginning of each day cycle if necessary (such as the Sheriff).
• The game ends when either all Mafia members are killed (Innocent victory) or the Mafia members outnumber the townspeople (Mafia victory).
• When a player is killed by the Mafia, their Role/alignment will NOT be revealed.
• When a player is lynched, their Role/alignment WILL be revealed

For casting Lynch votes:
To cast a lynch vote: Lynch vote: (username)
To change your lynch vote: Change vote: (username)
To remove your lynch vote: Unvote
To cast a 'no lynch' vote: Lynch vote: No Lynch
If the above convention is NOT used, it is likely (but not definite) the vote will NOT be counted. Please use the above convention. It makes it considerably easier to see people's votes and count them up.

 

[Kid-Wolf]

Ok I've pinned this topic incase after we finish up our first game we could use this thread for any further discussions as well here. That and to make sure it doesn't suddenly disappear with all of the other gamming topics here.

I only posted this part because I kind of want to see this game do well. Who knows we may see more special roles involved if more perople particapate.

Hopefully I don't die in game because of wanting to keep this thread noticeable now.

 

[dchaosblade]

lol, I'll forgive it since the thread isn't being used >_>

My hope is that we'll get more people involved in the next game - allowing for possibly more roles and much more fun.

Next game, I plan to remove the time restrictions on day cycles. Instead, Day Cycles will last until a majority vote has been reached for a lynch (including a majority vote for no lynch). Night cycles will still be 24 hours max though - possibly ending earlier when and if all Roles contact me.

This game was designed to run quickly just to give everyone a feel for how things work. I designed it so that innocents would almost definitely lose, too...though it was (and still is) certainly possible to have an innocent victory...it'll just take some luck and skill.

 

[monsta666]

One question: once the game is finished would you post the roles each member was assigned in the game? I think posting such information - even once the game is finished - would be useful and could provide some helpful clues for future games. It would also serve as a remainder for people about who did what in the past allowing us to assign roles more evenly or avoid situations where one member is put in the same class in consecutive games. On that token, I think there should be a rule you can't be a mafia/sheriff or other special class for two consecutive games.

 

[dchaosblade]

QUOTE (monsta666 @ May 21 2011, 04:37 AM) One question: once the game is finished would you post the roles each member was assigned in the game? I think posting such information - even once the game is finished - would be useful and could provide some helpful clues for future games. It would also serve as a remainder for people about who did what in the past allowing us to assign roles more evenly or avoid situations where one member is put in the same class in consecutive games. On that token, I think there should be a rule you can't be a mafia/sheriff or other special class for two consecutive games.
That was absolutely my intention.
Once the game concludes, I will provide a final wrap-up - saying who was what role and when each person was killed.

In regards to the second point: All roles were assigned completely randomly. Next game, they will again be assigned completely randomly. The problem with not assigning a person the same role twice in a row is that it allows for Metagaming (players already know for certain that certain players cannot be certain roles, and thus can discount them should they make certain claims. E.g. if the sheriff from last game claims to be a sheriff next claim, no one would believe him/her - which prevents many strategies from being possible).

 

[Kid-Wolf]

Ok quick question, if we manage to get a bigger group would you mind posting up the other special calsses assigned as well here, and how manay people are needed for them to be used and whathave you?

I know I'm risking things here, but you have to understnad I kind of want that to be clear you know.

 

[dchaosblade]

QUOTE (Kid-Wolf @ May 21 2011, 01:15 PM) Ok quick question, if we manage to get a bigger group would you mind posting up the other special calsses assigned as well here, and how manay people are needed for them to be used and whathave you?

I know I'm risking things here, but you have to understnad I kind of want that to be clear you know.

Seriously, you need to stop coming in here until you're dead...Next time, I WILL remove you from the game.

Other possible Roles:
Vigilante: Each night, the Vigilante may kill another player (by sending their name to the Moderator). The Vigilante is on the Town's side.
Serial Killer: Like the Vigilante, they may kill another player each Night (by sending their name to the Moderator). However, the Serial Killer is not on the Town's side nor the Mafia's side. The Serial Killer wins when everyone else is dead.
Inventor: This player is on the town side. They are provided a number of single-use "items" that they may use (either at night or during the day). The items may have obvious effects, or may not be known. Examples: An item allowing them to investigate, an item allowing them to protect someone, an item allowing him to role-block someone, etc.
Role Blocker: (Often known as the 'gypsy') - these players are able to prevent other Roles from using their power. They can be on either the Innocent or Mafia side. If on the Innocent side, they are able to prevent Mafia kills. If this role is implemented, there will also be changes to how Mafia kills occur (see Godfather).
The Godfather: The mafia leader. When investigated by the Sheriff, they appear as innocent despite being a mafia member. This player will 'send in' the kill order for Mafia, and name the mafia member who will commit the 'hit'. As such, if a Role Blocker blocks either the Godfather or the Mafia member who's going to commit the hit, the kill is prevented. Due to this, Mafia members don't have to be in agreement, the Godfather makes the final choice (if (s)he's still alive).
Traitor: This member is Mafia aligned, but is NOT a member of the Mafia, and they don't know who is in the Mafia. They appear as innocent, and have investigative abilities similar to the Sheriff. They cannot speak privately to the Mafia unless they are recruited (Mafia must sacrifice a night-kill in order to recruit the Traitor) at which point they lose the ability to investigate. If they are not recruited, they are not counted amongst the Mafia's numbers for checks for a Mafia loss (in other words, if all other Mafia members are dead, the Mafia loses even if the Traitor is still alive).
Stool-pigeon: An alternative to the Traitor. The stool pigeon knows who all the Mafia members are, but the Mafia do not know who the Stool Pigeon is. The Stool Pigeon is Mafia-alligned, appears innocent, and cannot participate in Mafia activities. They cannot be recruited and do not have investigative abilities like the Traitor does. They lose when all the regular Mafia members die, and win when the Mafia wins.
Miller: An innocent on the Town's side. However, if investigated by the Sheriff, this player appears to be guilty. The Miller does NOT know that they are the Miller, they think they are just a regular Townie.
Berserker: An innocent on the Town's side. If the Berserk is attacked at night (by either the Mafia, Vigilante, or Serial Killer), then both he and the attacker die (If I'm going down, I'm taking you with me!!) - the Berserker knows his/her Role.


Further, a special Bullet-Proof Vest may be thrown in on a random Townie which allows that person to survive a single Mafia attack WITHOUT the help of a doctor. This item would be given completely randomly, and the person who has it would not know they have it until after it's been used.

As far as how many players are necessary for each role to be thrown in...I'd say we need at least 10 players and I'd throw in one role each for innocents and Mafia (or perhaps the Serial Killer). every time we get 2 more players, I'd be able to throw in one more role.
I also plan to change how many Mafia members are in the game (this game, there are three - giving Mafia a large advantage through numbers (this was intentional in order to make the game end quickly this time)).

If we actually get a LOT of players in future games, we may also add in multiple Mafia families who compete amongst each other. I've seen games with as many as three mafia families. I doubt we'd get enough players for that though...

 

[monsta666]

Regarding the extra classes, I think it is best (for now) that these extra classes/tools are NOT added even if we have 10 or more members. Many people are largely unfamiliar with this game and I believe it would be best if we played two or three games so a core number of members have a decent grasp of the basic elements before additional components are added to the game. Once we have established who the regular players are and they develop a good grasp of what is going on, then we can add extra twists to keep things fresh.

The biggest issue I see though is getting extra members involved. I think we need to make a more active effort in recruiting members because not only is the game better played with more members but there will a good chance that one or two members from a game will drop from the next one. So we need to gain about 2+ members to ensure our numbers increase.

 

[dchaosblade]

QUOTE (monsta666 @ May 21 2011, 06:59 PM) Regarding the extra classes, I think it is best (for now) that these extra classes/tools are NOT added even if we have 10 or more members. Many people are largely unfamiliar with this game and I believe it would be best if we played two or three games so a core number of members have a decent grasp of the basic elements before additional components are added to the game. Once we have established who the regular players are and they develop a good grasp of what is going on, then we can add extra twists to keep things fresh.

The biggest issue I see though is getting extra members involved. I think we need to make a more active effort in recruiting members because not only is the game better played with more members but there will a good chance that one or two members from a game will drop from the next one. So we need to gain about 2+ members to ensure our numbers increase.
I would agree. This first game is to get general familiarity and to hopefully draw extra attention. This next game I didn't plan to add extra roles unless we had a significant influx in the number of players. After the game ends and we see if anyone wants to stop or start playing with us, we'll see what other people's opinions are on the matter.

 

[Kid-Wolf]

Well since I'm pretty much a deadman walking as of now I guess I can post her more often.

In any case I kind of asked for the addtional roles since this game is usually from a small to a big group. The biger the group total the more members added to each side. Usually when more people play along the more the game becomes more balanced for each side. Beside we all know that this was supposed to be loopsided to get a feel for the game.

Besides I kind of like the RP effect we kind of added since it gives the game a bit more flavor. Although it is optional to do so since it gives the feel that this game is rather interesting to play.

 

[dchaosblade]

Ok, few things:
Those of you who are dead or interested in playing but didn't participate in this game, please feel free to post any suggestions or changes you feel need to be made to improve the game. I'm open and willing to discuss anything you come up with.

On that note, I've been doing some looking around at how other games are run online. One thing I noticed is that PMs are not allowed between players except amongst Mafia members (at night) or other special Roles (which are not listed above, but nevertheless). I'm considering making this true for our games as well. Thoughts?

@Kid-Wolf: You're just lucky I didn't kill you off the first 2 times you posted in here despite me telling players not to. Anyway~
The problem I have with the RP thing is that it becomes harder to point out suspicious 'things'. For one, Mafia members are RPing as if they were innocents (including their 'thoughts' - which is kinda skewed and unrealistic). But besides that, it makes it harder to suggest a lynching - especially on day cycles where no deaths occurred previously (such as our first day cycle).
It is often considered to be true that any lynch is better than no lynch - but especially if you manage to accidentally hit on a Mafia. But how do you go about RPing suggesting a lynch...for no good reason?
And then we go on and look at other days, and people keep saying "I vote to lynch so-and-so because I have suspicions" but no one voices WHAT suspicions, or why - and a part of that I would assume is because there's no real way to RP Meta-stuff into the game, just like it's hard to RP 'random vote' lynches into the game (where you don't know anything, but you decide to vote on a random player just to get the ball rolling, get people talking, and maybe get a feel for who IS suspicious).

Edit: Edits made above.

 

[Kid-Wolf]

Well I know that the Mafia need to convine to pick a person a night and pretty much the only ones that Pm you are the ones that have any special ability to either kill someone, or to investigate/silence someone.

I mean I don't see the need for other major characters to PMing anyone else other than the GM since it kind of takes the fun out of finding out who is on which side as of now.

Oh yeah since I was silenced you mind doing a bit of flavor text of being pretty much completely unaware of what's happening? Since I thought it would bring out a bit of flavor to the game.

Oh yeah and the next time we play this do you want to keep the Therapist or leave it out for a bit to see which way is better?

 

[dchaosblade]

QUOTE (Kid-Wolf @ May 22 2011, 04:31 PM) Well I know that the Mafia need to convine to pick a person a night and pretty much the only ones that Pm you are the ones that have any special ability to either kill someone, or to investigate/silence someone.

I mean I don't see the need for other major characters to PMing anyone else other than the GM since it kind of takes the fun out of finding out who is on which side as of now.

Oh yeah since I was silenced you mind doing a bit of flavor text of being pretty much completely unaware of what's happening? Since I thought it would bring out a bit of flavor to the game.

Lol, if you want, feel free to write up your own lynch scene, and PM it to me. Saves me from having to do the work xD

 

[monsta666]

QUOTE (Kid-Wolf @ May 22 2011, 09:31 PM)I mean I don't see the need for other major characters to PMing anyone else other than the GM since it kind of takes the fun out of finding out who is on which side as of now.
I don't know how it would be possible for the townspeople to win if the special roles were not allowed to communicate with one another via pms. The mafia members already have a tactical advantage to the other members as they are aware of the other members in their group and can thus plan accordingly. The townspeople on the other hand, do not have such knowledge. In fact - at the start - they know nothing and have the the real disadvantage of not knowing who is innocent and who is a mafia member. They are in a position of distrust which the mafia can easily exploit to their own ends. So to counter these disadvantages communication is necessary to at least have a chance of establishing who is who.

You also have to consider if the townspeople (which included the ones with special roles) were not allowed to speak privately then the mafia members would be able to see all their plans as it would be in the open thread rendering any planning useless. You will know who is the sheriff, doctor and therapist and kill them off first and the remaining townsfolk would be like lambs to the slaughter.



QUOTE (Kid-Wolf)Oh yeah and the next time we play this do you want to keep the Therapist or leave it out for a bit to see which way is better?
Hmm I am not sure about this. What would be better, and effect the dynamics of the game in a more profound way, is if we altered the number of mafia members. It seems this game had three mafia members and the more mafia members there are the easier it is for them to win. If you consider this game had a 5:3 ratio at the start of the game and the conditions for a mafia victory are for the mafia to outnumber the townspeople. You will see this current set-up heavily favours the mafia. Add the fact that the day and night cycles are relatively short (24 hours max) which means less planning time for the non-mafia members then the best things to alter are the cycle length and number of mafia members. I believe the standard rules have only two members. I would favour a drop from the current three to two. But it is up to dchaosblade on what happens here. That is only my personal opinion.

In any case Wolfie, let's try and not add additional rules that could favour the mafia because you never what could happen next time, it could be you playing the role of therapist!

 

[dchaosblade]

QUOTE (monsta666 @ May 22 2011, 06:30 PM) I don't know how it would be possible for the townspeople to win if the special roles were not allowed to communicate with one another via pms. The mafia members already have a tactical advantage to the other members as they are aware of the other members in their group and can thus plan accordingly. The townspeople on the other hand, do not have such knowledge. In fact - at the start - they know nothing and have the the real disadvantage of not knowing who is innocent and who is a mafia member. They are in a position of distrust which the mafia can easily exploit to their own ends. So to counter these disadvantages communication is necessary to at least have a chance of establishing who is who.

You also have to consider if the townspeople (which included the ones with special roles) were not allowed to speak privately then the mafia members would be able to see all their plans as it would be in the open thread rendering any planning useless. You will know who is the sheriff, doctor and therapist and kill them off first and the remaining townsfolk would be like lambs to the slaughter.


QUOTE (Kid-Wolf)Oh yeah and the next time we play this do you want to keep the Therapist or leave it out for a bit to see which way is better?
Hmm I am not sure about this. What would be better, and effect the dynamics of the game in a more profound way, is if we altered the number of mafia members. It seems this game had three mafia members and the more mafia members there are the easier it is for them to win. If you consider this game had a 5:3 ratio at the start of the game and the conditions for a mafia victory are for the mafia to outnumber the townspeople. You will see this current set-up heavily favours the mafia. Add the fact that the day and night cycles are relatively short (24 hours max) which means less planning time for the non-mafia members then the best things to alter are the cycle length and number of mafia members. I believe the standard rules have only two members. I would favour a drop from the current three to two. But it is up to dchaosblade on what happens here. That is only my personal opinion.

In any case Wolfie, let's try and not add additional rules that could favour the mafia because you never what could happen next time, it could be you playing the role of therapist!

I've already said that this game was created heavily favoring the Mafia from the start due simply to numbers. Next game, unless we see an influx of players, I will be lowering the number of Mafia. I will also be changing the day/night cycles such that day cycles will last until a majority vote for a lynch (or no lynch) occurs, and night cycles will last exactly 24 hours. Both of these changes will make the Mafia side lose a bit of advantage.

Further, the entire POINT of Mafia is that it is a game of an informed minority vs. an uninformed majority. The innocents aren't supposed to know much of anything.

Apparently, traditionally in online games, PMs are not allowed. And think of it, if you're, say, the sheriff. It's day two, you've investigated once and know that so-and-so is guilty. You still don't know who is safe to PM and who isn't. PM doesn't really help. What can an innocent plan via PM that wouldn't be safe to plan out loud?

 

[Kid-Wolf]

Well monsta-san the thing is when I've played this in real life it was usually two mafia members with the ammount we have here, with one sheriff. Although there were more than 8 which meant the two could pick of two people at a time. Although since it's online and people don't tend to be on at the same time it makes it a bit easier for the mafia to PM on agreeing on one target.

Besides the civilians can help out by trying to question everyone before jumping to conclusions on who is a mafia member or not.

Normally I usually tend to die on the civilian side near the end of the game at times. Although this was the first time I've ever fully played out the mafia role now. The other time I kind of played the doctor role before.

Granted it was a varation of this game since like I said before there are a few variants to this game. One is like this, but KGB instead of Mafia because it sounded cooler for some people, the other is with worshipers of Lovecraft's creation, and the other is about werewolves and/or vampires, which I seen and played that actual card game. It's kind of a card game since each card has a role a person plays out, or at least tries to mind you.

In the end it's really nothing more than a whodunit kind of game, and the wrong choices can cost you.

Oh yeah I have an idea instead of starting off with the night shift the next game how about having a day shift where the people introduce themselves on what they normally do during the daytime into the game board just so that people can get an idea to RP thier role out. Also, the therapist seems a bit of a buzzkill here so would it be ok to swap that role out for one of the others, or just to leave it out next game.

 

[monsta666]

QUOTE (dchaosblade @ May 23 2011, 12:22 AM)Apparently, traditionally in online games, PMs are not allowed.  And think of it, if you're, say, the sheriff.  It's day two, you've investigated once and know that so-and-so is guilty.  You still don't know who is safe to PM and who isn't.  PM doesn't really help.  What can an innocent plan via PM that wouldn't be safe to plan out loud?
Whilst nothing is ever certain and there will always be an element of risk. PMs allow you to take calculated risks with certain people whilst avoid revealing compromising information to high risk members. If you used the open thread to discuss every plan then you WILL know that the mafia will see it and this isn't a favourable outcome particularly since the mafia members can easily counter any plans the innocents can make.

As for judging who is mafia or not, one can make some reasonable deductions as to who is most likely a mafia member by seeing how people respond in the main thread. Off course players can bluff/counter bluff etc but I assume that this is part of the game. In any case by making these observations you can take calculated risks (nothing is certain and this is where the luck comes in) and talk to other members and convince them you are innocent by revealing your true self. To do so, in the main thread is suicide however as everyone would know exactly what you are doing. But if you inform particular members you can at least have the chance of cooperation. These statements can be supported further by telling other members of the suspicious behaviour/voting patterns of the so called mafia members.


QUOTE (Kid-Wolf @ May 23 2011, 04:55 PM)Also, the therapist seems a bit of a buzzkill here so would it be ok to swap that role out for one of the others, or just to leave it out next game.
Thing is, the therapist is useful because he allows the innocents a chance of victory even if the number of mafia members in town is 50:50. This is because he can silence one mafia member and in doing so, allows the innocent side to form a majority vote and thus lynch the mafia member. This could be repeated in theory until all mafia members are dead. Without the aid of the therapist it would be impossible for the innocents to win when the groups are placed at 50:50. The therapist is therefore useful for this exact reason.

 

[dchaosblade]

The therapist could be replaced with any number of the other roles for similar benefits, monsta666. For example, I could replace it with the Vigilante - offering townspeople the ability to kill off Mafia members. Alternatively, the Berserker is a one-shot counter. The Inventor allows for multiple abilities all-in-one. etc.

Either way, I was considering simplifying the next game in the following way (assuming we maintain 8 players):
2 Mafia members
1 Sheriff
1 Doctor

Day cycles last until a majority vote for a lynch (or no lynch) exists. Night Cycles last for 24 hours.
Game starts with a Day cycle, but a murder of an townsperson (non-player) occurred the night before - allowing RPing a lynch on the first day without making everyone appear bloodthirsty for no reason.

I may or may not also assign one person a Bulletproof vest or Berserker ability - this person will not know they have it though (and thus, no one in the game will know whether the ability is in until after it's been used).


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Monsta-666, I still ask exactly what kind of plan the innocents could inact via PM that would not work by talking in the thread? Especially when you don't know who is who other than the Sheriff knowing (maybe) someone else's role (but even then, why would the person (s)he PMs believe that it really is the Sheriff talking to them and not the Mafia)?

I know that I received PMs from the Sheriff of THIS game saying that they had PM'd various players and had basically dug their own grave because of it. It seems to me that allowing innocents to PM is more detrimental than beneficial. And it also goes against the very fiber of what the game is about.
When I allowed PMs between players during the day cycle, I viewed it as being the equivalent of whispering to another player if this were real life. The only problem is that in real life, it's quite possible (and likely) to be overheard.
I suppose an alternative is to allow players to PM, but they must CC me with every PM and have a chance of me forwarding the PM to Mafia member(s)...

 

[dchaosblade]

QUOTE (warita200)Hello Chaos,

too bad I cannot read or post in the mafia discussion thread. But Monsta tells me aproximately, what kind of discussions go on in that thread and I would like to tell you this:

1) PMs are VERY important. Just as Monsta pointed out, when the townspeople are thinking about strategies, they dont want the mafia to know about it.
It is true that by PMing the wrong person, you can dig your own grave, but that is part of the game. So, if you make the wrong choices, than the game is over for you, as simple as that.

What I dont understand is this: You say you dont see any benefits in sending PMs. So, if you say PMs are pointless, then why are you and Kidwolf so keen on prohibiting them? If it was completely pointless, then people wouldnt be sending any PMs. The fact that we have been communicating over PMs like crazy means, there is point to it.

Just look at this following situation. We need to agree on lynching the right person, right? So Nioki (mafia), started saying we should lynch Maiku, because he is inactive. Lavender, despite all sound logic thought, this is a good idea. I however knew, that Maiku is innocent, because Kidwolf also nominated him and I knew, that Kidwolf is mafia. Do you think I can just barge into the main public thread and say: Oh i dont think we should lynch Maiku, because I know Wolf is Mafia and he would never nominate his mafia partner for lynching. So dont lynch him!!!
So, I send Lavender a PM explaining him this in private. He didnt know for sure, I am telling him the truth, BUT he was suspecting Wolf himself, so he figured, there is a good chance I am telling him the truth. Also, even if he didnt believe me this cycle, after Maiku died, he knew I was telling him the truth, so next time I approached him, he was much more open to what I had to say. And thats the point of sending PMs. Because we dont want this type of communication to be seen by the mafia.

And something super important more. If the townpeople are not allowed to coordinate their actions via PMs, and hence cannot spread the word who is mafia and what would be the best strategy to counteract them, in that case, PMs between mafia members should be forbidden too. Whats the difference between agreeing on lynching the right person and agreeing on murdering one citizen?

The reason why Wolf is against the PMs is probably because he realizes that is what led to his downfall. I, the sheriff, knew about him being the mafia and I spread the word through PMs and there is nothing he could do about it.
Oh, and speaking of the sheriff role..... whats the point of having this special role, if the Sheriff is not allowed to pass on the information of who is mafia to other members? He can hardly do that in the main thread.

For one, I'm arguing for no PMs, and I'm completely impartial. I'd actually rather see games with innocents win! But lets put that aside for now.

I'm not saying that PMs are useless, I'm saying they aren't beneficial, only detrimental. I'm talking about prohibiting them because I want to prevent the detrimental effect, and also steer the game into more charted territories, where others have played and experienced it working well.
I will point out that if I removed the ability to PM during day-cycles, then both Mafia and Innocents would lose the ability, not just Innocents.
There are also other factors. In regards to your above stated example, there are a few ways to go about it.
For one, you could just say that you're going to vote for Kid-Wolf - make up an excuse, or name it as random (despite you knowing it as fact) - and then start arguing that voting for Maiku simply for being inactive isn't a very good way to go about things.
You could, realistically, have also revealed your Role. If you reveal that you are Sheriff, and no one counter-claims, you also state that Kid-Wolf is Mafia. Kid-Wolf gets lynched that day. That night, the doctor protects you, the therapist silences some other player, you investigate. The next day, you reveal your investigation. Even if you didn't find another Mafia member, you could reveal a definite innocent whom the rest of innocent players could depend on being impartial. That day, you also lynch. Regardless of whether you lynch right or wrong, the Mafia would be down to 2, verses the 4 innocents (were 5, they couldn't kill you, there are now 4). That night, you'd likely die. But still, you have 2 Mafia vs 3 Innocents at worst, one of which is confirmed, the other two have Roles. This scenario still allows for an Innocent victory - especially if either of the two remaining players then claim their Role , leading to a guaranteed innocent victory.
Had you actually found a Mafia on the 2nd investigation too, you would drop the playing field to only 1 Mafia vs the remaining 3 Innocents.

Now, I will also point out two other things: A player who is fairly inactive IS generally considered suspicious. It's a fairly common thing that Mafia members tend to 'stay quite' hoping NOT to draw attention.
Also: It's also a common tactic for Mafia members to initially vote for their cohorts. This throws the other players (including the Sheriff) off, thinking that a Mafia member would never vote for a teammate. They can then either change vote later (after letting someone give a reason to vote for someone they know to actually be innocent) or even intentionally sacrifice a team-member, thereby completely removing suspicion from themselves! So yeah...The two things that made you think that Maiku obviously couldn't be Mafia are two signs that he COULD be Mafia as well xD

It has also already been pointed out to Kid-Wolf that he may very well be an innocent in a future game.