Islam

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Dalriada

-dono
Sempai
QUOTE
Actually..THERE IS a correct and incorrect islamic belief.. There is a very fine line between what is and isnt Islamic.

Really ?
And who's the overmind who can assert the correctness of an islamic belief ?
Who (except Allah I guess) has the right to tell that another one is not a muslim ?


QUOTE I told you how I dont like a bunch of people who dont know what they are talking about..sit here and talk about my religion..your response to me was, "Well then correct me and the others if we are wrong and blah blah blah.." Well I am correcting you.. There is a VERY FINE LINE between what is and isnt Islamic belief. So no..they are not interpreting it differently.. they are psychos!

They're criminals, no doubt about that. Muslim criminals, no doubt about that.
I know I asked you to correct me. I bet I also added not to rely on the famous argument "I'm right because I think I'm right".


QUOTE
Ok..once more..as I and zabusasama26 have said.. its either "Quran" or "Qur'an".. there isnt another way to spell it..
DEBATE DROPPED

I love how you debate in a so thoughtful way ! It says so much about you !
Seriously, the three spellings can be found in English, it's just a fact. Whether koran has lost the favour of the public is another problem (just like the capital of China can be spelled Beijing or Peking, but the last one is out-of-favour).


QUOTE
But for clarification..the NOI (nation of islam) isnt a sect of islam.. Never can be because of what past leaders have preached and done.. Why do you think Malcom X left the NOI to join mainstream islam..because he realized the NOI and their teachings were incorrect..

Why do you feel the need to say 'mainstream islam' instead of 'islam' ?
Because the NOI is non-mainstream islam ?
Therefore, the NOI is islam (a very peculiar flavour, indeed).
Highly logical.


QUOTE
Ok, music and harems have little connection..what are you trying to say?
harem according to dictionary. com is:
1. the part of a Muslim palace or house reserved for the residence of women.
2. the women in a Muslim household, including the mother, sisters, wives, concubines, daughters, entertainers, and servants.

Mastermaniac is just mispelling haraam.



QUOTE Ok then. For clarification... there are only 2 "sects" of islam..
Shiites (sp?)
Sunnis

I bet Kharijites and Sufis disagree.
And I bet among Sunnis (or among Shiites), there's a wide range of beliefs. About music for example, but also about the death penalty or about a lot of other things.
 

hadji_129

-san
Kouhai
Alsalam alaykum guys... *sighs* I see there is much disunity among us. When such a thing happens, there is only thing to do:


4:59 O ye who believe! Obey Allah, and obey the Messenger, and those charged with authority among you. If ye differ in anything among yourselves, refer it to Allah and His Messenger, if ye do believe in Allah and the Last Day: That is best, and most suitable for final determination.

Scholars have interpreted the meaning of "refer it to Allah and His Messenger" to mean refer to the Qur'an and the to authentic hadeeth. For the Qur'an is the word of Allah and the hadeeths are the teachings of His Prophet (pbuh).

Music:

"From among my followers there will be some people who will consider illegal sexual intercourse, the wearing of silk, the drinking of alcoholic drinks and the use of musical instruments, as lawful..."

Volume 7, Book 69, Number 494 -- the narration is authenticated by Bukhari.

QUOTE Ok then. For clarification... there are only 2 "sects" of islam..
Shiites (sp?)
Sunnis

"Indeed this Ummah will split into seventy three sects and all of them are in the Fire except for one and that is the Jamaa'ah."

--- Ibn Abi Asim (Kitab Al Sunah, 1/33) --- authenticated by Al-Albani.

It is hard to assume that there are only two sects when the Prophet (pbuh) himself mentioned that there are more. I can name fifteen off the top of my head as well. However, they aren't as popular as the two that you have mentioned.

Also, it is impossible to say that there are no major differences between the sects. If there were no differences, why would the Prophet (pbuh) say that seventy-two of these sects are going to hell?

If there aren't any differences in the core beliefs of your parents, then it is maybe because they do adhere to the same beliefs. However, we cannot say that they represent their sects.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------


QUOTE Really ?
And who's the overmind who can assert the correctness of an islamic belief ?
Who (except Allah I guess) has the right to tell that another one is not a muslim ?

Well, yeah, I guess one's opinion of their own sect doesn't really hold much weight. =)


QUOTE Why do you feel the need to say 'mainstream islam' instead of 'islam' ?
Because the NOI is non-mainstream islam ?
Therefore, the NOI is islam (a very peculiar flavour, indeed).
Highly logical.


I agree with this... being in the majority doesn't make you correct. Heck, that would mean that Christianity is true. =p


QUOTE And I bet among Sunnis (or among Shiites), there's a wide range of beliefs. About music for example, but also about the death penalty or about a lot of other things.

Differences of opinion when it comes to matters of Islamic law doesn't divide Muslims into different schools of thought. What divided them were their differences when it came to the creed and core of Islam.
 

Dalriada

-dono
Sempai
QUOTE
Differences of opinion when it comes to matters of Islamic law doesn't divide Muslims into different schools of thought. What divided them were their differences when it came to the creed and core of Islam.

I agree, just like differences of opinions about some problems doesn't mean there's a schism in the RCC (And it's the good thing, religious wars usually occurs after major Christian schisms).

But it does show that there's different beliefs among muslims on some subjects (even if the core stays the same).
Reading some messages here, I felt that some thought there was only one narrow way to practise Islam, and it bugged me. But I've no problem with saying there's one broad way.
 

koiji

-san
Kouhai
QUOTE (Dalriada)They're criminals, no doubt about that. Muslim criminals, no doubt about that.
I know I asked you to correct me. I bet I also added not to rely on the famous argument "I'm right because I think I'm right".

You know the funny thing is though...I never said, "Im right cause I think Im right" or even implied it. Its obvious!


QUOTE (Dalriada)
I love how you debate in a so thoughtful way ! It says so much about you !
Seriously, the three spellings can be found in English, it's just a fact. Whether koran has lost the favour of the public is another problem (just like the capital of China can be spelled Beijing or Peking, but the last one is out-of-favour).

Well you know what your writing says about you? It says your an ignorant fool whos trying to argue with someone about THEIR OWN RELIGION. Your getting on my nerves..
Its either Quran or Qur'an. END DISCUSSION


QUOTE QUOTE
Why do you feel the need to say 'mainstream islam' instead of 'islam' ?
Because the NOI is non-mainstream islam ?
Therefore, the NOI is islam (a very peculiar flavour, indeed).
Highly logical.


I agree with this... being in the majority doesn't make you correct. Heck, that would mean that Christianity is true. =p

Ok, do either of you even know what the NOI is? Why Malcolm X left?! What its about? Its not Islam at all! They teach hatred towards those of different color than their own and a whole bunch of other BS. I only used the word "mainstream" islam because I couldnt find the right words to describe it and Ive done an extensive amount of research on Malcolm X. Alot of the biographies used "mainstream islam" to describe it.. ok..
Do your research.. Ive done mine! NOI = NOT ISLAM AT ALL
And hadji..arent you muslim?..how do you not get this?!


QUOTE (Dalriada)QUOTE

Actually..THERE IS a correct and incorrect islamic belief.. There is a very fine line between what is and isnt Islamic.


Really ?
And who's the overmind who can assert the correctness of an islamic belief ?
Who (except Allah I guess) has the right to tell that another one is not a muslim ?


Ok..so then..looking at a Christian and saying that they arent Muslim makes me wrong? Obviously they are not Muslim..
The psychos out there who take Allah (swt) name in their killings..are not muslim...


QUOTE (hadji_129)Also, it is impossible to say that there are no major differences between the sects. If there were no differences, why would the Prophet (pbuh) say that seventy-two of these sects are going to hell?

If there aren't any differences in the core beliefs of your parents, then it is maybe because they do adhere to the same beliefs. However, we cannot say that they represent their sects.

Ok honestly.. why did the muslims split into the shiites and sunnis in the first place? EVERYTHING THEY BELIEVED WAS THE SAME! THEY ONLY HAD DIFFERENT IDEAS ABOUT WHO SHOULDVE BEEN THE NEXT CALIPHA AFTER THE PROPHET (PBUH) PASSED AWAY! There isnt a difference! Muslims are all so disunited now because they have the same way of thinking. They are keeping themselves apart. Look up on your history! I mean hell! I know a hell of alot of Shiites and Sunnis and it is pretty much the same! Like I said! Until people stop looking at "sects" and all the other BS..we can never truly be one united people!


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Hadji..you say you are a muslim..abandon that way of thought brother..we should stand united as one people.. not fighting against our brothers..

Dalriada.. dont get me started.. I mean..Im sure you wouldnt like me criticizing everything you said if we were having a debate/discussion over your religion when I dont know what the hell Im talking about..

And I DONT regret saying that this is probably the last time I will be posting in the Islam thread ( i may read up on some peoples posts..but not likely..Idk,,just depends..)..Im not perfect..I may have said a few things wrong..but my beliefs are, not to sound conceited, correct... And hadji..as a true muslim..you should be agreeing that we should be standing united and victorious as one people rather than divided and conquered..
 

hadji_129

-san
Kouhai
QUOTE Ok honestly.. why did the muslims split into the shiites and sunnis in the first place? EVERYTHING THEY BELIEVED WAS THE SAME! THEY ONLY HAD DIFFERENT IDEAS ABOUT WHO SHOULDVE BEEN THE NEXT CALIPHA AFTER THE PROPHET (PBUH) PASSED AWAY! There isnt a difference!

Bro, if the matter was only about who should have been the next caliph after the Prophet (pbuh) then there wouldn't have been this much literature written in the subject. If there was no differences between the two, then the Shi'ite scholar Al-Mufid wouldn't have said, "Those that don't believe in the infallibility of the twelve Imams are out of the fold of Islam."

I can get page numbers later if you like. =p


QUOTE Look up on your history! I mean hell! I know a hell of alot of Shiites and Sunnis and it is pretty much the same! Like I said! Until people stop looking at "sects" and all the other BS..we can never truly be one united people!

I do believe in unity, however, unity cannot happen while Shi'ites hold onto their fundamental beliefs.

I believe in this type of unity:

"O People of the Book! come to common terms as between us and you: That we worship none but Allah; that we associate no partners with him; that we erect not, from among ourselves, Lords and patrons other than Allah." 3:64

The common terms is that they don't associate anyone with Allah (swt). That is the clause that the Prophet (pbuh) asked of the Christians and the Jews. He didn't say something like, "We'll be Christians on weekends and you be Muslims on weekdays," or anything silly like that. He didn't give up an inch of his creed when he called for unity. There is no compromising when it comes to matter of creed.


QUOTE Im not perfect..I may have said a few things wrong..but my beliefs are, not to sound conceited, correct... And hadji..as a true muslim..you should be agreeing that we should be standing united and victorious as one people rather than divided and conquered..

There is no unity between me and those that ascribe themselves to deviant sects. Your view is that Shiasm and Sunnism is one and the same, however, those observations are one that you have made alone. While the scholars of the Muslim world have come to a consensus that there is a major difference between a Sunni and a Shi'ite. Try googling Imam Malik and Ibn Taymiyah (rahimahum Allah) and look up their views of Shiasm.
 

Dalriada

-dono
Sempai
QUOTE You know the funny thing is though...I never said, "Im right cause I think Im right" or even implied it. Its obvious!

Yes, you said "it's obvious because I think it's obvious".
But it's circular thinking, there's not argument, no fact, no logic. You're just prisoner of your own preconceptions.


QUOTE Well you know what your writing says about you? It says your an ignorant fool whos trying to argue with someone about THEIR OWN RELIGION. Your getting on my nerves..
Its either Quran or Qur'an. END DISCUSSION

I know I'm a fool. But the discussion about the word koran/quran/qu'ran is not a theological problem, but a linguistic one.
One could ask how I dare to argue about English since it's not my own language, but no one did.


QUOTE
Ok..so then..looking at a Christian and saying that they arent Muslim makes me wrong? Obviously they are not Muslim..
The psychos out there who take Allah (swt) name in their killings..are not muslim...

Saying that a christian is not a muslim is fine (The Pope is not muslim ! Yeah, what a revelation !).
But it's not the point here.
The christian guy doesn't claim to be muslim, so it's pretty clear he's not muslim.
But with a guy claiming he's muslim (Al-Qaeda is certainly claiming to be muslim)... it's not clear at all !
And shoud we also say that those who think that music is not haraam are not muslim either ? Where do we stop, who decide where to draw the line ?


QUOTE
Dalriada.. dont get me started.. I mean..Im sure you wouldnt like me criticizing everything you said if we were having a debate/discussion over your religion when I dont know what the hell Im talking about..

A debate on agnostism is not a very interesting since, you know. Start one if you want, but since there's nothing to say about it except 'maybe, I'm not sure', it won't last long.
 

hadji_129

-san
Kouhai
QUOTE And shoud we also say that those who think that music is not haraam are not muslim either ? Where do we stop, who decide where to draw the line ?

Actually, I don't think that even being a terrorist gets you kicked out of the fold of Islam. Sure, they'd end up in hell, at least for a little while, but from what I've read, the only way to get kicked out of the religion is by associating other gods with Allah (swt).
 

Gustav1976

-sama
Retired
As a possible voice of reason could I attempt to end the conflict here (months later) by suggesting that in the end it only the one who created everything who will judge what was right and wrong. As mere humans we all capable of erros and interpret things differently and I could also point out that it is unlikely that any of us have actually been told anything directly by any heavenly messenger.
Note to mod or sempai: it might be an idea to close this thread for the time being
 

is_darkness88

-chan
Kouhai
don't just criticize others religion if you don't know a things about it. everyone have their own religion, just believe in yourself. one more things, don't just interprate Quran with your own thought, it is not easy.. you have to know a lot of knowledge. it is not somebody's word. it GOD's words. minna, wakatteru??
 

mamori

-sama
Sempai
gentlemen, you have made you points. no sense trying to convince someone who is set against believing. especially when that person is already ignorant+lazy.
 

warita200

-RETIRED-
Retired
being a moslem and being a terrorist are two different pairs of shoes. Al Kaida may believe/claim to do this in the name of the religion, but thats just their sick psycho logic, which is not shared by the rest of the world.

I dont understand, why some people put the religion and terrorism in the same equation.
 

koiji

-san
Kouhai
Lol, nice job warita.

It most definitely is a problem within our society. I myself have been through hell due to the ignorance of the outside world.
 

Dalriada

-dono
Sempai
QUOTE being a moslem and being a terrorist are two different pairs of shoes. Al Kaida may believe/claim to do this in the name of the religion, but thats just their sick psycho logic, which is not shared by the rest of the world.

Maybe Al-Qaeda are just muslims and terrorists.

Being a muslim doesn't prevent from being a sick psycho (neither does being a christian or being an atheist, by the way).

Your argument sounds like the no true scotsman fallacy.
 

warita200

-RETIRED-
Retired
QUOTE (Dalriada @ Nov 27 2009, 04:11 PM)
Maybe Al-Qaeda are just muslims and terrorists.

Being a muslim doesn't prevent from being a sick psycho (neither does being a christian or being an atheist, by the way).

Your argument sounds like the no true scotsman fallacy.
of course you can be moslem and a terrorist at the same time, but those are two separate issues and should be viewed as such.
 

koiji

-san
Kouhai
Dal I think what warita is trying to say. is that everytime someone hears the words, "Muslim" or "Islam", their minds automatically go to terrorism. Which is, ignorant... But thats the nature of reality.. Our society sucks..

Am I right warita? Or am I completely missing your point?
 

mosque

-chi
Kouhai
The Face of Religion

Now I am called the shepherd of the desert
Now a Christian monk,
Now a Zoroastrian.
The Beloved is Three, yet One:
just as the three are in reality one.
Ibn El-Arabi (Shah 87)
 

hadji_129

-san
Kouhai
This thread is dead even though so much has been happening recently that revolves around Islam.

Fun article about Abu Huraira. It wouldn't mean much for those that don't know anything about him.
 

gdpetti

-dono
Sempai
The real problem is that talking or discussing any religion, philosophy, economic theory etc has to deal with the reality of our world and the use of psychopaths to control it, thus the puppet show we see in our 'Wizard of Oz' world... or bizarro world..... Machiavelli wrote down the basics as he knew of them a few hundred years ago in Italy, in his book "The Prince", as he was trying to get a job with the local oligarchy in town... essentially it speaks of the basic principles of ruling the masses, and Islam or any other religion is just a front that these psychos use to manipulate the masses once they take over... they get their foot in the door and take over any organization/party/religion, they then subvert the real message with their lies and after a few generations, the masses don't know anything but these lies, as the psychos have the history books rewritten, the same with school books etc.... psychopaths have no conscience, they are born that way, you can't change them, and the smart ones learn to put on the 'Mask of Sanity' and many become psychologists and doctors, priests and politicians as they learn what people want to hear etc.... they will do and say anything to get what they want... they are simply human predators.

Why do I mention this? The current Moslem problems in the ME exemplify this policy. The psychos are controlled from behind the curtain, to use the Oz reference, by the SG, secret govt types that are global and operate through all the usual suspects like the bankers, intel, business, military, fake religious types like Gul and so many others such as the whole Saudi Wahabbi crap.... useful fronts to spread the NWO.

Example is so many countries today, but here is an interview with an American couple in the oil business that was in Libya a little while before the war started.... it was a 'wake-up call' for them... they simply didn't know at the time WTF was going on. Take a listen to an interview: http://www.sott.net/page/11-Sott-Talk-Radio Sott posted an article of theirs the other day: http://www.sott.net/article/298082-The-tru...onsulate-attack

It's all a con game of predators and prey, in which knowledge is power.... so power up, learn WTF is really going on.
 

Ryu

~ Dark Pun Master ~
Staff member
Leader Council
QUOTE (gdpetti @ Jun 22 2015, 07:37 PM)a con game of predators and prey, in which knowledge is power.... so power up, learn WTF is really going oabout this topic I recently saw He Named Me Malala, interesting documentary! i suggest you to check it out... a look at the events leading up to Taliban's attack on Pakistani school girl, Malala Yousafzai for speaking out on girls' education
 
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