Homo Sexuality

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Dalriada

-dono
Sempai
QUOTE (EggBeast @ Nov 13 2009, 12:27 AM) Basically, the government shouldn't even define marriage, it shouldn't even recognize marriage. Government should only acknowledge civil unions between 2 consenting adults, and give them any special privileges/tax benefits based upon that. Marriage ceremonies can then be performed by religious institutions, or whatever institution you like. That way, the institution of marriage stays sacred, and the government can stay the h*** out of our pants!
That's what happens in some other countries. Ex : France. The only legal marriage is the civil marriage, made by the mayor of the town. Churches can perform religious marriage, but it has absolutely no legal value (that's why often, there's a little ceremony in the city hall and a bigger in the church).

It doesn't prevent some people from being against gay marriage (or gay civil unions) for religious reasons.
I guess the reasoning is something like "We're already nice to tolerate them, they could at least be ashamed and hide under a rock instead of wanting to make their relationship official".
 

chiisai_hana

-nipah!
Retired
QUOTE (koiji @ Nov 13 2009, 12:18 AM)I agree, homosexuality is a topic I have NEVER heard discussed in school.
And one of the things they also fail to account for is the teacher's personal beliefs. A teacher shouldn't be able to tell children 'all gays should die' OR 'you have to accept homosexuality, your religion is wrong, etc'. And if they're not for it, the less likely they are to bring it up as a topic in class. All schools really have to do is say "yes, it's legal. If you want to explore the issue more, use it as your essay topic".


More uplifting now, here is a story about an American boy refusing to take his pledge of allegiance because he's opposed to the unequal treatment of homosexuals.
 

koiji

-san
Kouhai
QUOTE (chiisai_hana @ Nov 13 2009, 06:17 PM)
More uplifting now, here is a story about an American boy refusing to take his pledge of allegiance because he's opposed to the unequal treatment of homosexuals.

Wow, that story was VERY uplifting and inspirational...


QUOTE (chiisai_hana @ Nov 13 2009, 06:17 PM)
And one of the things they also fail to account for is the teacher's personal beliefs. A teacher shouldn't be able to tell children 'all gays should die' OR 'you have to accept homosexuality, your religion is wrong, etc'. And if they're not for it, the less likely they are to bring it up as a topic in class. All schools really have to do is say "yes, it's legal. If you want to explore the issue more, use it as your essay topic".

Actually, interesting story related to this.. a Dual Credit College English Professor at my school won't allow friend of mine to write her major report on Gay Marriage. She claimed that it, "would cause too much controversy amongst the other students... and its not a very suitable topic.." and a bunch of other ridiculous crap about why she cant write her essay on Gay Marriage.. Luckily, my friend is very strong willed and is still determined to write her essay on Gay Marriage.

But you know, I, as a gay man myself, have run into a few problems with some of my intolerant homophobic teachers who, will jump at any opportunity to try and make sure I fail and get kicked out of all my college courses.. life's a blast, no?
 

HazBroke

New Member
Kouhai
QUOTE (chiisai_hana @ Nov 12 2009, 09:51 PM)"Opponents repeatedly warned voters that if gays were allowed to marry, it would be taught in the public schools — a tactic that proved effective in California last year."


This.

This makes me the most angry about our society today. My question to these people would be, "Do they teach you about heterosexual marriages in school?" The obvious answer is, No. So how would homosexual marriage been taught in school? It wouldn't be just like heterosexual marriages. Of course in school you read books about married people, but more often than not it's about one single person. or at least what I read in high school was.

Forgive me for not going over the last forty pages, but on the first page someone said homosexuals are more likely to have HIV/AIDS, this is a minor misconception heterosexual people have an HIV/AIDS rate the same as, if not higher than homosexuals.

My issue is that people have issues accepting people who are different from them, and people not allowing themselves to be open-minded about anything different from their beliefs, and that is what's causing our society today to look down upon, or discriminate against homosexuals. I mean if you honestly look at it a male and female couple will often times do the same things as a two males. And the heterosexual couple looks down about the same sex couple, which is hypocritical. If people today want to get anywhere else in life they need to accept the fact that everyone is different, and some people love different people, ie man and woman, man and man, or woman and woman.

I for one am a lesbian, I have an aunt who is also a lesbian, and has an obvious lesbian girlfriend, who have been together for almost 15 years now. They long to get married, but because it's frowned upon in the society now, they can't be. I have a friend whose mom is the same way, she has a lesbian girlfriend and can't get married. This same friend also has a gay father. There is no reason for people to look down at people like me. I'm not bothering anyone, nor am I flaunting my homosexuality around. I'm not less intelligent than a straight girl, I'm not less active than a straight girl. I do my job and I do well in school. I don't give anyone a reason to think of me a bad person. The only time I really even talk about my sexuality is when I'm with my friends, and most of my friends are like me or a bunch of guys, so it doesn't matter to them.

In short. I think people need to open up their minds a little more. Stop making stupid accusations like homosexual marriages being taught in school, and look at the picture as a whole. If you're a homosexual great, if you're a heterosexual great, we are all people, we are all equal, and should remain equal. As it stands right now, homosexuals are not considered equal, and that's the problem we are running into.

Heh, sorry long post, ranting about what I think on this topic.
 

EggBeast

- deska`
Retired
QUOTE (HazBroke @ Nov 14 2009, 12:27 AM) My issue is that people have issues accepting people who are different from them, and people not allowing themselves to be open-minded about anything different from their beliefs, and that is what's causing our society today to look down upon, or discriminate against homosexuals.
That's definitely true. I'm not homosexual myself, but being an atheist, and an ex-Mormon to boot, in the state of Utah (aka "Mormon capital of the world"), I have to live with a lot of discrimination from the religious folk around here, and it's always before they get to know me. They always hear these horror stories about people leaving the church, or go through the scriptures about how evil and depraved the "Godless" are, and they never bother putting a human face to their stereotypes.

I think the only reason we see this bias against homosexuality more than others is because heterosexuals tend to think "homosexual sex is icky", making them feel more justified in their prejudice.

I think that ultimately it comes down to the fact that for humans, it's easy to hate people you're not familiar with rather than take the time to understand them. That's probably my least favorite characteristic of humanity.
 

koiji

-san
Kouhai
QUOTE (HazBroke @ Nov 14 2009, 01:27 AM)My question to these people would be, "Do they teach you about heterosexual marriages in school?" The obvious answer is, No. So how would homosexual marriage been taught in school? It wouldn't be just like heterosexual marriages.

I asked the same question.

QUOTE (koiji @ Nov 12 2009, 11:18 PM)And let me ask, do schools repeatedly discuss the benefits of heterosexual lifestyle? Is it taught in schools or pushed onto students? Obviously not, so then why should it be any different for homosexuals?

Anyways, my question is why we all feel the need to differentiate ourselves from one another. The words, homo and hetero, clearly separate us into two very different classes of types of people. I believe that automatically creates an unequal playing field. LGBT couples, wish to have the same rights and privileges and heterosexual couples, correct? Well, I believe our biggest problem, is that we keep ourselves divided. Does being gay make you any less of a human being? Same thing goes for a straight person. No, so why do we feel the incessant urge to differentiate ourselves from the people on "the other side". And, I'm going to be honest, I, just as almost everyone else here, is guilty of this. Before breaking down the sterotypes, and before all the rallies and protests, we all need to come to an understanding that we are just people. Heteros, homos.. it really doesnt matter. Because in reality, regardless of what your sexual preference may be.. we're all practically searching for the same thing: happiness, and maybe even someone who love and cares for you, and you can spend the rest of your life with.

Idk, maybe some people don't agree, and it'd definitely A LOT harder than it sounds.. but that's just my opinion.

(Btw, this may sound conceited, but I feel personally responsible for the revival of this topic. Doesn't everyone just love me?!
hahaha )
 

Cody

-chan
Kouhai
I Find it disturbing and disgusting and personally and just plain wrong. And thought of these getting married is sickening mainly because the religion says its wrong how can change the so called word of god just to suit a set of people? Everyone is entitled to there opinion or supposed to be but can not say anything to these freaks is annoying.
 

warita200

-RETIRED-
Retired
QUOTE (koiji @ Nov 16 2009, 05:01 PM) Well, I believe our biggest problem, is that we keep ourselves divided. Does being gay make you any less of a human being? Same thing goes for a straight person. No, so why do we feel the incessant urge to differentiate ourselves from the people on "the other side". A gay person isnt any less human than the rest, however homosexuality is not normal and hence shouldnt be treated as such either.
 

EggBeast

- deska`
Retired
QUOTE (warita200 @ Feb 20 2010, 11:39 AM) A gay person isnt any less human than the rest, however homosexuality is not normal and hence shouldnt be treated as such either.
Well sure, although some 10% of people are homosexual or have homosexual tendencies. Homosexuality can only be abnormal in the sense that being African-American is abnormal (about 12% of Americans are black). So sure, maybe homosexuality isn't "normal", but there's nothing intrinsically wrong with it.


QUOTE (Cody @ Feb 20 2010, 11:20 AM)I Find it disturbing and disgusting and personally and just plain wrong. And thought of these getting married is sickening mainly because the religion says its wrong how can change the so called word of god just to suit a set of people? Everyone is entitled to there opinion or supposed to be but can not say anything to these freaks is annoying.
Well, I personally think that homosexual sex is disturbing, the same way I used to think girls were gross because they had cooties (when I was 5). Not understanding the appeal of something doesn't make it wrong.

And yes, some religions say that only a man and a woman should get married. But in a government with no state-sponsored religion, how can they apply that same standard? The idea that a government should give one group of people rights over another based upon some religious ideals they're not even supposed to recognize... that's where the argument is.
 

warita200

-RETIRED-
Retired
QUOTE (EggBeast @ Feb 21 2010, 03:41 AM) Well sure, although some 10% of people are homosexual or have homosexual tendencies.  Homosexuality can only be abnormal in the sense that being African-American is abnormal (about 12% of Americans are black).  So sure, maybe homosexuality isn't "normal", but there's nothing intrinsically wrong with it.
Actually there is something VERY instrinctively wrong with homosexuality. I didnt mean to say it is abnormal in the sence that the majority istn gay, but rather in the sence, that it is a deviation from how the things were intended. If 90% of people were homosexual, it still wouldnt be normal. OK, maybe the word "normal" isnt quite the correct word for what I mean to say...... anyways, sexual orientation is by nature meant to be MALE-FEMALE, period. Sex was originally there for procreation and not for fun.
Please dont misunderstand me, I am not saying people should have sex only when they want to have offsprings. We live in modern times, procreation and sex are two separate things and in 99,99% of cases people have sex for the pleasure rather than procreation. But the fact still remains, that according to the original plan, it was meant to be male-female. There is no point in creating male-male, or female-female oriented individuals. Homosexuality is a deviation from how things were meant to be and therefore not normal. I am not saying that gay people should be shunned because of this. It is not their fault that they were born this way. But still, it is NOT normal and shouldnt be treated as such.
 

EggBeast

- deska`
Retired
QUOTE (warita200 @ Feb 21 2010, 03:57 AM) Actually there is something VERY instrinctively wrong with homosexuality. I didnt mean to say it is abnormal in the sence that the majority istn gay, but rather in the sence, that it is a deviation from how the things were intended. If 90% of people were homosexual, it still wouldnt be normal. OK, maybe the word "normal" isnt quite the correct word for what I mean to say...... anyways, sexual orientation is by nature meant to be MALE-FEMALE, period. Sex was originally there for procreation and not for fun.
Please dont misunderstand me, I am not saying people should have sex only when they want to have offsprings. We live in modern times, procreation and sex are two separate things and in 99,99% of cases people have sex for the pleasure rather than procreation. But the fact still remains, that according to the original plan, it was meant to be male-female. There is no point in creating male-male, or female-female oriented individuals. Homosexuality is a deviation from how things were meant to be and therefore not normal. I am not saying that gay people should be shunned because of this. It is not their fault that they were born this way. But still, it is NOT normal and shouldnt be treated as such.
I see where you're coming from, but still, there are animal species where only 10% of the male population EVER get to mate (the "alpha-males"). That doesn't mean the other 90% of the male population isn't made the way nature intended, and it sure doesn't mean there is no purpose in their existence (from a naturalistic perspective, I'm not trying to say you're dissing on homosexuals or anything
). Maybe instead of saying "it shouldn't be treated like it's normal", you should say "they shouldn't be treated as if they're predispositioned to produce live offspring". It would be a little more accurate.
 

Klyern

-san
Kouhai
I remember hearing this joke in a TV comedy (i think its that one where the couple's names are jim and jill)

Woman: Arent you worried or freak out that they are gay

Man: What are you crazy? Who are we to deny it if they wish to be happy?

(the joke was behind the meaning that male-female courtship is a pain in the ass and that women also get more anoying the more they age, i dont remember it perfectly but it was totally implicit that it meant that.)

So yhea lol, if they wish to be happy who are we to say xD, even if we are jealous they skip all that courtship and stuff xD (not jealous of the sex tou lol, im straight all the way rofl, but one thing that does seem true is that women are for the most part anoying xD, i know some who arent, but they are rare rofl, also i knows the internet lols, i had girlfriends in case anyone is going to start mouthing me lols)
 

Dalriada

-dono
Sempai
QUOTE (warita200 @ Feb 21 2010, 03:57 AM) But the fact still remains, that according to the original plan, it was meant to be male-female.
There's no such 'orginal plan' !

Except of course if you want to impose your religious beliefs on other people, which is intolerant and the opposite of modern democracries' values.
 

franzoir

-the smooth, the suave, and the shrewd
Sempai
I very much disagree. There is an original plan. If male-male and female-female relationships were the norm and the progression of science was limited, how long would it be before the human race is extinct.

Nature's original plan is for a man and women to procreate. Naturally and biologically it cant be done any other way. If thats not an original plan i dont know what is.

That being said I believe human beings should do whatever they like as long as they can bear the consequences of their actions.
 

SuperTaco

-chi
Kouhai
Wait to my understanding there is an over population problem, so I'm pretty sure the human race won't die out from that -.- if anything homosexuals will help... and for the religion subject I have yet to see a glowing face of awesomeness appear out of the sky and say no gays...so yeah xB
 

EggBeast

- deska`
Retired
QUOTE (franzoir @ Feb 23 2010, 03:27 AM) I very much disagree. There is an original plan. If male-male and female-female relationships were the norm and the progression of science was limited, how long would it be before the human race is extinct.
I don't think Dalriada's point was about how reproduction works, but rather, what the word "plan" usually implies. Plans are something made by living things, and has a strong religious implication when applied to humanity.

When it comes to saying what "nature's plan" is, the only thing we can talk about is evolution and natural selection, wherein a species that is good at surviving will tend to survive. Usually, this means that the species produces enough offspring to sustain a stable population, but doesn't produce so much offspring so as to create too much competition for resources (and hence cause resource depletion... and a lot of death. X_X ). None of this implies that everyone needs to have as many babies as possible, not at all.

And beyond that, the process of evolution by natural selection is virtually non-existent in modern-day society. (someone loses a limb, we give them prosthetics. someone gets ill, we give them medicine to recover. our farmland becomes impotent from over-farming, we fertilize the hell out of it. etc... etc...) It's not as if any human being is following "nature's plan" anymore.

I know you're not saying anything against this, franzoir, but if "living outside of nature" is a problem, then the only solution is to live the life of a hunter-gatherer.
 

Dalriada

-dono
Sempai
QUOTE (EggBeast @ Feb 23 2010, 05:32 AM) I don't think Dalriada's point was about how reproduction works, but rather, what the word "plan" usually implies. Plans are something made by living things, and has a strong religious implication when applied to humanity.
Exactly.
Wether you believe in a Christian-like God or in Earth/Nature as a sentient being, it's a religious opinion.
There's nothing wrong with having a religious opinion, but pushing this opinion on other people is definitely wrong.

I'll even go further than Eggbeast : there's no plan for the survival of the human race.
If one day, everybody turns gay and lesbian and don't have children anymore (stupid hypothesis, but let's imagine). Then what ? Earth will explode ? Life will die ?
No, everything will go well and other species will take the place of man.
There's no plan.
 

franzoir

-the smooth, the suave, and the shrewd
Sempai
QUOTE (EggBeast @ Feb 23 2010, 05:32 AM)QUOTE (franzoir @ Feb 23 2010, 03:27 AM)   
It's not as if any human being is following "nature's plan" anymore.


I concur, and i believe that is the problem with humanity at large. Nature and religion have just been replaced with science and reason to a perverse extent.

Science and reason dictates you can rationalise everything. Therefore you can rationalise homosexuality. So be it. And i can see why "reason" and "science" are loved so much. Its more malleable to the human's condition where you can justify all sorts of behaviours rather than religion which forbids certain activities and inherently less attracting. Since reason and logic is the dominating creed, i have no problem with gay people having equal rights etc. To be honest, i have too much to deal with in my own life than to start caring about other peoples sexual preferences.

However, if i had a son and he was gay, that would be the dealbreaker. I would disapprove, probably disown and feel like a failure as a father.


QUOTE I'll even go further than Eggbeast : there's no plan for the survival of the human race.

Seriously and honestly if i believed this, i would blow my brains out.

This is where you and i are fundamentally different. I believe deep down we all have an instinct to survive. And we largely cheat death by procreating so apart of us can live on. If there is no purpose in surviving and no life after death, you might as well end the cycle efficiently with post haste.
 

Dalriada

-dono
Sempai
QUOTE
I concur, and i believe that is the problem with humanity at large. Nature and religion have just been replaced with science and reason to a perverse extent.


Why do you think the ability of the human being of thinking and reasoning isn't natural ?
Some animals also display the ability of thinking or using tools, and they are considered as perfectly natural (smart, but natural).

On the other hand, no other animals have religion. So religion is certainly far more unnatural than thinking or homosexuality.


QUOTE Science and reason dictates you can rationalise everything. Therefore you can rationalise homosexuality. So be it. And i can see why "reason" and "science" are loved so much. Its more malleable to the human's condition where you can justify all sorts of behaviours rather than religion which forbids certain activities and inherently less attracting.

But science doesn't rationalise homosexuality !
Bigots try to demonize homosexuality using pseudo-scientific arguments. Science says "you're wrong, there's no such arguments. Therefore your dislike of homosexuality is not the result of a natural law, but of your personal distate". Nothing more. Science doesn't say homosexuality is good or bad.

EDIT :


QUOTE
Seriously and honestly if i believed this, i would blow my brains out.

This is where you and i are fundamentally different. I believe deep down we all have an instinct to survive. And we largely cheat death by procreating so apart of us can live on. If there is no purpose in surviving and no life after death, you might as well end the cycle efficiently with post haste.

Me too, I believe we have an instinct to survive (although there's a difference between the survival of the individual and the survival of the species).
But there's no natural law saying we should survive. The dinosaurs died, and the world went on.

By the way, on the life after death problem : I don't believe in life after death, I don't believe my life has a greater purpose. But there's no reasons for not enjoying it as long as I'm alive, and not fulfilling my personnal goals.
 

franzoir

-the smooth, the suave, and the shrewd
Sempai
QUOTE (Dalriada @ Feb 23 2010, 11:29 AM)
Why do you think the ability of the human being of thinking and reasoning isn't natural ?
Some animals also display the ability of thinking or using tools, and they are considered as perfectly natural (smart, but natural).

On the other hand, no other animals have religion. So religion is certainly far more unnatural than thinking or homosexuality.

It is natural but it is taking precedence over emotions. And I believe human being are mainly emotional vessels therefore it is a fallacy for logic to come first.

I will never be swayed by a comparison with humans and animals. Some animals eat their spawn and have sex with their mothers. Should i do that too?


QUOTE But science doesn't rationalise homosexuality !

I also mention reason and with reason you can justify just about anything depending how you present your arguments.
 
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