Fate/Zero

[daedalron]

Seems like you misunderstood Norren comments.
He didn't say you were underestimating Rin, but the scenario

Aoi wasn't killed in the last episode. However, seeing her husband dead, as well as her childhood friend trying to kill her (and probably the aftereffects of the strangling too) completely broke her. She lost her sanity, so even though she survives the war, she is confined to a wheelchair, not understanding that Tokiomi is dead and Sakura is gone. (cf Type Moon wikia).
So, even though Rin is not technically an orphan, it's probably even harder for her, as she has to see the state her mother is in...

 

[Kid-Wolf]

So with this episode we see the end of poor Iri-san here by Kotominie's hands. Although I can understand why the Einzberns though he betraying them since he never came back with the Grail. Although if you think about it he had a good reason along with not going back as well.

In any case it looks like this might be Rider's last ride into battle, but I kind of wonder how the fight with Beserker will end up as as well as how he will meet his end.

 

[Killer_Ossi]

So there was the one scene I feared, but sadly Iries death didnt really sadden me since it was so lousy. Especially compared to the deaths of Lancer or Maiya. But she doesnt seem to be dead so maybe she can still get the glorious death she deserves.
But the hill of Iries was really delicious, I wouldnt mind getting some of them ^^

Kirei is right when saying that a world without war is the end of humanity since I believe the same. Without wars we probably still wouldnt have something like a car or maybe not even electricity. A world with peace may sound great but its the exact opposite. Humans are born to fight and as long as no outer enemy comes they have to fight each other. If there appears an outer enemy its a different matter of course.

 

[Ryu]

QUOTE (daedalron @ Jun 03 2012, 05:10 AM)Seems like you misunderstood Norren comments.
He didn't say you were underestimating Rin, but the scenarioah I got it now! my mistake daedalron and norren -.- will be great if this series shows what you just explained because it was never mentioned in any FSN adaptation from what I remember, anyway Berserker must pay for destroying Saber's cool bike with his improved machine gun so I bet she'll not go easy on him just for revealing he's her once trusted knight Lancelot... however I though Gilgamesh was going to use GoB to beat Iskander's entire army his anti-planet weapon Ea was the best choice destroying not only them but his IH reality marble too with a single Enuma Elish, also I expected Waver to be one of the few survivors from this 4th grail war and his last bromance moment before Rider's death but it was unusual to see Gil spare his life while admiring the loyalty as his king's retainer

 

[Norren]

It will explain it in time, remember that the books don't end with the end of the war. There's an aftermath section that gives a better sense of closure and buildup towards F/SN.

But for this epsisode... Ah, the subtle beauties of these scenes in motion. Rider's final charge, filled with satisfaction, punctuated by force, and ended only by Gilgamesh's very last resort, Enkidu's chains. If I recall correctly, the books describe Rider's charge symbolically, as well. In his mind, Rider was running on the beach of Oceanus, excited and overjoyed like a child, surge of waves in the background, at the same time as he ran forward across the bridge. It gave sort of a duality to the statements "have you awakened from your dream?" and "the sound of Oceanus' waves was my own heart".

Something I felt noteworthy that was difficult to communicate visually, Gilgamesh and Iskander held the greatest of respect for each other. Gilgamesh doesn't draw Ea for just anybody, and to jump immediately to using it to break his Reality Marble was an absolute sign of respect. Gil's usual MO is to just throw noble phantasms at a problem until it goes away, and some problems are beneath even that. (Recall Gil's disgust at Caster's abomination) Waver's survival in the end came down to this respect. Gilgamesh did not spare Waver out of respect for Waver's devotion, but out of respect for the fallen Iskander's order to live.

And with that, Waver has become a man capable of returning the gaze of the King of Heroes himself. He came looking for the respect of his peers and betters in the magician's society... he leaves with something far better... the respect and friendship of his King. Waver goes on to become the next Lord El Melloi, replacing the now deceased Kayneth, proving his theories right with his new found self-confidence. Watch for him in the Kaleidoliner anime! He comes to Fuyuki to clean up after Rin and company when they bork things up since there's no church supervisor for what passes for Kaleidoliner's holy grail war. XD

On the other side of Fuyuki... Saber is lost in a pit of despair. Her most trusted knight raises his sword against her in blind rage, and triggers every last self-doubt she had about her reign. We may see more on this, we may not, so I'll sort of hold off on the Saber vs Berserker fill in until I know which way that's going.

Also. Kariya, just die already. You're more of a cockroach than the bugs you control.

 

[Killer_Ossi]

To be honest Im quite disappointed at the end of Rider. I really wouldve wanted to see Gilgamehs using the Gates of Babylon to crush Riders army instead of using his Enuma Elish to just make it vanish. Sure Gilgamesh going all out like this is a sign that he really respected Rider and his strength, but using the Gates of Babylon wouldve just looked better and wouldnt have made Riders Noble Phantasm look useless.

Waver really manned up since meeting Rider. Who wouldve thought that he could look Gilgamesh straight in the eyes like that.

This show really likes to crush Saber as it seems with them making Berserker one of her most trusted knights. I wonder how the tale about Guinivere was in the Fate world and how the story about her cheating Arthur with Lancelot played out. Overall I wouldnt mind an anime solely about Sabers life as Arthuria.

And yes, Berserker has to die for destroying that bike.

 

[Norren]

Gate of Babylon doesn't have enough disposable noble phantasms in it to take out Ionian Hetairoi. Iskander was not exaggerating when he offered to let Gil arm each of his men with ONE noble phantasm. A decent number of his men each have their own noble phantasm or conceptual weapons. In the books, waver is dumbfounded when he realizes that each one of Iskander's men is a mid to low class Servant - most with their own noble phantasms - in their own right, each capable of answering the GRAIL'S call, not just Iskander's.

Sadly, Ea was the only winning move we know Gil to possess in that situation. It's anticlimactic, but it was what had to happen.

Back to Saber for a bit, I'll wait to see how it pans out, but a short teaser... Guinevere was in on the whole Arturia secret, which is why the Lancelot/Guinevere affair happened in the first place.

 

[Kid-Wolf]

Well I have to say at least Rider went out in a GAR-like manner. Although this may have setup the precurser as to how Gil could take out a Reality Marble if he felt like it. For some reason I'm reminded of that one crossover doujin as to how Tohno Shiki managed to break Shiro's Reality Marble in an anti-climatic way as well, so this felt rather similar here.

In any case as for Saber and Beserker I have to say it seems she's going to have a very hard time having to deal with a former Knight of the Round Table that has lost his sanity here, but I look forward to see how that plays out.

Also, it looks like Illya might make her apppearance once more it would seem, but I'm also looking forward to the Hellfire moment between Saber and Gil that pretty much started the Prologue for Fate/stay night.

 

[Kit-Tsukasa]

QUOTE (Norren @ Jun 10 2012, 10:36 PM) Sadly, Ea was the only winning move we know Gil to possess in that situation. It's anticlimactic, but it was what had to happen.
I think that the issue is the novels dragged it out a lot more thereby making the fight feel a bit more epic than presented. I mean if you look at literally every episode since Kiritsugu's past (episode 7 onwards?), the show has skipped around a lot and pacing has been quite poor overall. What I'm really worried about is if they finish off both Berserker and the end of the Grail War next episode, especially given the episode title. That's a lot of material left to cover and while the epilogue alone has a handful material, I think half an episode is sufficient for it rather than a full episode.


QUOTE To be honest Im quite disappointed at the end of Rider. I really wouldve wanted to see Gilgamehs using the Gates of Babylon to crush Riders army instead of using his Enuma Elish to just make it vanish. Sure Gilgamesh going all out like this is a sign that he really respected Rider and his strength, but using the Gates of Babylon wouldve just looked better and wouldnt have made Riders Noble Phantasm look useless.

Actually, in reference to Fate/Stay Night and Fate/Hollow Ataraxia, we knew in advance that Ea was an anti-world weapon, meaning yes it could even shatter the reality marble created by Unlimited Blade Works. This didn't occur in Fate/Stay Night but did occur in Fate/Hollow Ataraxia (not UBW though), thereby making it no surprise. In Fate/Stay Night, Gilgamesh never thought the need to go all out against the other servants or masters whereas in Fate/Zero, Gilgamesh promised to go all out against Rider, meaning dispelling Ionian Hetairoi as necessary. In short, Rider chose a bad matchup after losing his chariot.

Keep in mind that Fate/Stay Night and Fate/Hollow Ataraxia came before Fate/Zero, so this was a pre-established fact.

 

[Marine-RX179]

QUOTE (Kit-Tsukasa @ Jun 11 2012, 04:04 PM) I think that the issue is the novels dragged it out a lot more thereby making the fight feel a bit more epic than presented. I mean if you look at literally every episode since Kiritsugu's past (episode 7 onwards?), the show has skipped around a lot and pacing has been quite poor overall.

In Fate/Stay Night, Gilgamesh never thought the need to go all out against the other servants or masters whereas in Fate/Zero, Gilgamesh promised to go all out against Rider, meaning dispelling Ionian Hetairoi as necessary.[/SPOILER] In short, Rider chose a bad matchup after losing his chariot.

Keep in mind that Fate/Stay Night and Fate/Hollow Ataraxia came before Fate/Zero, so this was a pre-established fact.
I have to wonder if ufotable messed up the pacing is partically due to they wanted to ensure Rider's demise on the 10th June's episode (King Alexander is said to have died on that day).

And well...I think lots of people have been saying that the only reason why Shirou managed to beat Gil was because he was underestimated, and most importantly wearing the protagonist halo

 

[Marine-RX179]

A dedicated individual has made the following video in the memory of Rider and uploaded it at the very same day as episode 23 was broadcasted on the 10th June- the day that Alexander The Great passed away...

http://nicoviewer.net/sm18059178

 

[Ryu]

QUOTE (Norren @ Jun 10 2012, 04:25 AM)It will explain it in time, remember that the books don't end with the end of the war.  There's an aftermath section that gives a better sense of closure and buildup towards F/SN.

Waver's survival in the end came down to this respect.  Gilgamesh did not spare Waver out of respect for Waver's devotion, but out of respect for the fallen Iskander's order to live.my bad I misinterpreted it again -.- hopefully there is an epilogue like you just mentioned because next week is the last episode and in case there isn't then a OVA in a near future will be enough, the semifinal was a really cool Kiritsugu vs Kirei fight and both survived as their tricks didn't work that well on each other (their battlefield resembles Batman's hideout in the Dark Knight movie) xD ...too bad it was interrupted when Iri turns into the Grail but Kiritsugu refused her and ordered Saber to destroy it while a really mad Gil complains for ruining his "wedding" (the only funny scene ^^), now after its cliff-hanger the only battle left is the famous prologue flashback of F/SN but is that Angra Mainyu who was revealed the same one born from the holy grail and accidentally summoned in the 3rd war as the 8th class Avenger emboding all evil of the world when Shirou becomes at moments Bazett's new servant in Hollow Ataraxia? surely a similar fate prepared for the Emiya

 

[ImTakes]

QUOTE (Norren @ Jun 10 2012, 02:25 AM)Ah, the subtle beauties of these scenes in motion.  Rider's final charge, filled with satisfaction, punctuated by force, and ended only by Gilgamesh's very last resort, Enkidu's chains.  If I recall correctly, the books describe Rider's charge symbolically, as well.  In his mind, Rider was running on the beach of Oceanus, excited and overjoyed like a child, surge of waves in the background, at the same time as he ran forward across the bridge.  It gave sort of a duality to the statements "have you awakened from your dream?" and "the sound of Oceanus' waves was my own heart".
Something I felt noteworthy that was difficult to communicate visually, Gilgamesh and Iskander held the greatest of respect for each other.  Gilgamesh doesn't draw Ea for just anybody, and to jump immediately to using it to break his Reality Marble was an absolute sign of respect.  Waver's survival in the end came down to this respect.  Gilgamesh did not spare Waver out of respect for Waver's devotion, but out of respect for the fallen Iskander's order to live.
And with that, Waver has become a man capable of returning the gaze of the King of Heroes himself.  He came looking for the respect of his peers and betters in the magician's society... he leaves with something far better... the respect and friendship of his King.


I will always cherish the great and noble Iskandar as one of my all time favorite anime characters...I admire Waver too and really had fun watching his character come into his own and grow to be a fine young man. Love the spoiler you put out there, Norren-san and look forward to that possible said series.

Now, I wish to do my humble best to pay tribute to my hero...words will not do him justice but since I have no harp to sing my tribute...I do so here:
The Dream's of Oceana~~
Ah...at last, I have come home.
I do so without regret
without renouncing my throne.
I am not dead but live on.
I will live in time and in eternity
upon the waters still
upon the blue of night
in Oceana's fill.
I faced my death
with noble intent.
My men, beside me,
heaven bent.
Onward we roar
to the highest helm
wherein we can
in sword and battle
be found.
My heart, dancing,
my steed, soaring,
my armor, clamoring
even now,
in immortality,
still.
Death has no sting
upon me,
Iskandar,
a great and noble King.
I will live on
in you, noble Waver
my friend,
in whose memory,
hope will spring.
Listen to her now,
Oceana's dream.
Listen now, as she envelops me
in sleep eternal.
Her waves,
a sweet caress,
her smoothness,
my mother's breast.
Now, with noble jest,
I lay my head upon her
noble and deep
abiding crest.
One last hope,
before I part,
to you
noble King Gilgamesh,
to you,
after I am gone,
may victory
rest.
Written humbly this day...06/16/12 by yours truly.

 

[Kit-Tsukasa]

Well then the Saber and Berserker fight was incredibly rushed to the point of disappointment. Kariya technically dies yet they make it seem as if nothing really happened to him. The final few moments were of the episode were great though leaving off a "nice" cliffhanger and the preview pretty much gave away that we are getting the said epilogue as Shirou was narrating

 

[Kid-Wolf]

Okay I kind of figgured as to what was going to happen with Kirisugu here, and pretty much the cost of having his wish granted by the Grail would of been to high of a price to pay in the end of things.

Even so I've heard about that tragic scene while he was emmersed inside the Grail though, but it goes to show that the thing that shouldn't of been summoned from the 3rd War still remained and tainted it's contents to the point of were the Grail should never be completed unless the world should come to an end over it.... at least I think that's what it boils down to.

So in the end I'll bet we'll get to see Shirou in the end of all of this before everything is said and done though. Pretty much this showed that Kirisugu was known as an Eternal Badass up to this very point in time.

 

[Norren]

Fridge logic moment:

The Einzbern Homunculi are somewhat linked to the greater grail formed of Justica, right? Does that mean Ilya experienced her demise in the dream world that the Angra Mainyu is sharing with Kerry? It might explain part of why Ilya is so messed up in the head by F/SN time.

Back to the episode:

I think I'm going to hold off on judging Lancelot vs Saber until the full length BD version of the scene. I recall reading somewhere (Was it here, even?) where someone criticized the Japanese as using the TV showing of a series as an over-glorified TV commercial for the BD box sets for a series... I get the distinct feeling they composed everything for the BD and just hack and slashed it to fit the TV slots.

 

[Kit-Tsukasa]

QUOTE (Norren @ Jun 18 2012, 05:13 PM) Fridge logic moment:

The Einzbern Homunculi are somewhat linked to the greater grail formed of Justica, right? Does that mean Ilya experienced her demise in the dream world that the Angra Mainyu is sharing with Kerry? It might explain part of why Ilya is so messed up in the head by F/SN time.
No, Illya was "messed up" because Emiya Kiritsugu never came home as we'll likely see in the next episode. He instead stays in the mansion in Fuyuki raising Shirou for the most part. He tries to rescue Illya but unable to due to his loss of magic during the aftermath of the war.


QUOTE Back to the episode:

I think I'm going to hold off on judging Lancelot vs Saber until the full length BD version of the scene.  I recall reading somewhere (Was it here, even?) where someone criticized the Japanese as using the TV showing of a series as an over-glorified TV commercial for the BD box sets for a series...  I get the distinct feeling they composed everything for the BD and just hack and slashed it to fit the TV slots. 

The thing is Fate/Zero has so much material in the final 2 volumes that the staff poorly paced it. Even if it's extended on the BDs, we will at most get 3-7 minutes of extra footage per episode and there is the high chance that some episodes will remain untouched. ufotable and Aniplex did confirm back when the first season was airing that the BDs will have extended footage but did not disclose how much specifically. Either way, it just bothers me to no end that they wasted so much time on Caster who is the least important of the servants and also squeezed in the Rin episode back in season 1.

 

[Barbobot]

QUOTE (Norren @ Jun 18 2012, 09:13 PM) I think I'm going to hold off on judging Lancelot vs Saber until the full length BD version of the scene. I recall reading somewhere (Was it here, even?) where someone criticized the Japanese as using the TV showing of a series as an over-glorified TV commercial for the BD box sets for a series... I get the distinct feeling they composed everything for the BD and just hack and slashed it to fit the TV slots.

That's pretty much exactly what all late night anime is. Just a really long commercial to get people to buy the DVD/BDs. No clue what time FZ aires though.

 

[Kit-Tsukasa]

QUOTE (Barbobot @ Jun 18 2012, 06:47 PM) That's pretty much exactly what all late night anime is. Just a really long commercial to get people to buy the DVD/BDs. No clue what time FZ aires though.
24:00 on Saturdays (UTC+9)

 

[Killer_Ossi]

To be honest I didnt get ep 24. The fight Saber vs. Lancelot was cut so much that is was the lousiest battle of all and we never got to see why Kiritsugu and Kirei came to fight each other. On top of that I didnt really get the whole grail thing except for the fact that for Kiritsugus wish to happen humanity must be annihilated (what is a 100% true and logical since humans cant live without violence and war). But what had all this to do with Ilya and Irie coming back? Why did Kiritsugu even obtain the grail when there are still two servants left and not only one?
Seems like I have to read the novels to understand it (what I will do when Im trough Sword Art Online).

@Norren: You said that QUOTE Guinevere was in on the whole Arturia secret, which is why the Lancelot/Guinevere affair happened in the first place
What secret do you mean?