Fate/Zero

[Killer_Ossi]

Seems like finally Kirei awakened to his true self. That will be trouble for Tokiomi.

Too bad we didnt see Iskandars army fight against the monster, wouldve been a feast. But there was probably no time for this and I cant even imagine how extensive producing that scene with this animation quality would be (except Kariya burning of course -.-).

So our dear Gilgamesh fell in love. Who wouldve thought he could fall in love with someone else than himself ^^

About the kiss. Its obvious that Maiya is in love with Kiritsugu but she knows that there is no place for her in his heart and thus she probably thought "whatever, just give me this little bit". What my question is is how Kiritsugu fell in love with Irie who was nothing more than a doll back then. But maybe that was the reason, maybe he saw himself in her, just two empty shells in a human body.

 

[senpai-kun]

QUOTE (ImTakes @ Apr 15 2012, 02:06 AM) Now as far a smexy Kiritsugu goes...his eyes are too dead, he is too dry and too straight forward but something tells me when he is alone with his beloved I-chan, he melts. He belongs to her despite his obsession with killing his enemies off. I ain't read the novels nor know the history of why he ticks the way he does, I can only guess based on a woman's intuition and on the sweetness that I-chan feels for him and her own womanliness towards him...he is one lucky man and no way would he defile her by cheating. Maya may have kissed him hard but he was like a dead man in return as I seem to recall he never responded to said passionate kiss...not one iota.

No you're probably spot on about Kiritsugu in this post; I was somewhat saying that all tongue-in-cheek. I also remember one episode last season that he asked Iri would she just abandon this quest for the grail (just them and I don't recall any mention of Maiya being taken into consideration) and leave with him right away. He was in temporary despair mode for some reason at that point which I can't exactly remember but it might have been Kirei fear induced. But ultimately she talked him back off his mental ledge and he went back to his usual scheming and plotting ways.

I really do like Iri though especially after it was explained that she was artificially created (all though I don't fully understand all the details myself) for the sole purpose of being a puppet for the Einzbern family. What I do understand is her purpose was to be used as an emotionless tool. So it was cool to see her enjoying her best NASCAR pro-driver impression with Saber on one hand and on the other being the calming and level-headed buffer between stubborn servant and equally as stubborn-headed master. She actually seems to have developed quite the personality but I can't help but think that her devotion to Kiritsugu is going to be her ultimate downfall. She seems to be the type that would fall on the sword so to speak just to save his life; you can say the same thing about Maiya as well. Kiritsugu has two skilled and devoted sacrificial pawns at his disposal.

 

[ImTakes]

QUOTE (senpai-kun @ Apr 15 2012, 08:25 AM) No you're probably spot on about Kiritsugu in this post; I was somewhat saying that all tongue-in-cheek.
I really do like Iri though especially after it was explained that she was artificially created (all though I don't fully understand all the details myself) for the sole purpose of being a puppet for the Einzbern family. The calming and level-headed buffer between stubborn servant and equally as stubborn-headed master. She actually seems to have developed quite the personality
As to whether I-chan is a doll, I care not since imo, she is a classy lady and a jewel. I love her character design and her personality. She is the new Eve.

I am very interested as to her origins and why and how she met her smexy albiet deadly husband...but like Norren-san has already said, "a perfect monster" as a family man? I remember him frolicking with his baby girl in the snow while the beauty that is his wife watched...a heart warming Winter scene if ever there was one.

Maya was in desperate sexual rage and seeing as to how K-kun was in need of one passionate smooch, she obliged him and he failed her big time, well, to respond.

 

[Killer_Ossi]

I completely forgot to say that its not a surprise Caster thought Saber is Jeanne since they did look alike. Except that Jeanne was able to smile which only happened once with Saber in this show if I remember correctly (when she was at the beach with Irie).

 

[Norren]

QUOTE (ImTakes @ Apr 15 2012, 10:30 AM) As to whether I-chan is a doll, I care not since imo, she is a classy lady and a jewel. I love her character design and her personality. She is the new Eve.

I am very interested as to her origins and why and how she met her smexy albiet deadly husband...
Their meeting is pretty simple, you see the bullet point highlights in the new ED. I'll actually spoiler this one even though it isn't really a spoiler: if you've watched Fate/Stay Night, or read the first chapter or two of Fate/Zero, you should already know it. But if you don't, it could be a bit of a sudden wham to have the dots connected and it might weaken some exposition from Iri in approx 2~4 episodes.

The Einzberns are a family of alchemists, which is not the most combat viable of magics. I don't remember how much of this has been covered in the anime or the F/SN anime, but they're the traditional providers of the vessel of the grail, that is, the homunculus that takes in the prana released by the death of a servant. (Servants are little more than huge prana batteries - that's their real purpose in the war.) When enough prana is gathered, the vessel of the grail is obliterated and the raw prana transformed into the grail. Incidentally, this is their other problem: They tend to send the vessel itself as a master. So their champion... becomes the grail and they lose by default. They've never even come close to winning.

To solve both the problem of Alchemy being weak in combat, and their champion being self-terminating, the Einzberns hired the famous Mage Killer, Emiya, 9 years in advance of the Holy Grail war, to be their chosen master. At the Einzbern mansion, he meets the vessel of the grail, Iri, who is little more than a human-like puppet at that point. Taking pity on her, he slowly awakens her as a person. As she matures, she begins asking him about the outside world, and he answers her. She tries to go to the outside world herself, he has to go find her freezing to death in the cold and get her back home. Over the course of all this, they fall in love, marry and have Ilia... and as the war itself approaches, Kiritsugu angsts with that line the series opened up with:

"Iri... I will be the cause of your death."

I don't want to go too far into the past of Mage Killer Emiya... They show some of his past in the new OP and I think they'll probably do the extra chapter that covered it as a full episode this season. If they don't, I'll describe it a bit. But that explanation should also give you a bit of an idea why Kiritsugu is so down.

 

[ImTakes]

QUOTE (Norren @ Apr 15 2012, 03:38 PM) Their meeting is pretty simple, you see the bullet point highlights in the new ED.  I'll actually spoiler this one even though it isn't really a spoiler: if you've watched Fate/Stay Night, or read the first chapter or two of Fate/Zero, you should already know it.  But if you don't, it could be a bit of a sudden wham to have the dots connected and it might weaken some exposition from Iri in approx 2~4 episodes.

The Einzberns are a family of alchemists, which is not the most combat viable of magics.    I don't remember how much of this has been covered in the anime or the F/SN anime, but they're the traditional providers of the vessel of the grail, that is, the homunculus that takes in the prana released by the death of a servant.  (Servants are little more than huge prana batteries - that's their real purpose in the war.)  When enough prana is gathered, the vessel of the grail is obliterated and the raw prana transformed into the grail.   Incidentally, this is their other problem: They tend to send the vessel itself as a master.  So their champion... becomes the grail and they lose by default.  They've never even come close to winning.

To solve both the problem of Alchemy being weak in combat, and their champion being self-terminating, the Einzberns hired the famous Mage Killer, Emiya, 9 years in advance of the Holy Grail war, to be their chosen master.  At the Einzbern mansion, he meets the vessel of the grail, Iri, who is little more than a human-like puppet at that point.  Taking pity on her, he slowly awakens her as a person.  As she matures, she begins asking him about the outside world, and he answers her.  She tries to go to the outside world herself, he has to go find her freezing to death in the cold and get her back home.  Over the course of all this, they fall in love, marry and have Ilia... and as the war itself approaches, Kiritsugu angsts with that line the series opened up with:

"Iri... I will be the cause of your death."

I don't want to go too far into the past of Mage Killer Emiya... They show some of his past in the new OP and I think they'll probably do the extra chapter that covered it as a full episode this season.  If they don't, I'll describe it a bit.  But that explanation should also give you a bit of an idea why Kiritsugu is so down.
See what I mean? Your Fate/Zero clarifications with regards to some of the characters and the whys have certainly helped me understand them better. Thanks again, Norren-san...I may just end up reading the light novels after all. I want more depth to certain characters and while I understand it may not be possible with an animated series, it can still happen in novels...I rarely invest so much time but this is a favorite and in my top five so, yep...more time devoted to it will be a good hobby for moi when not doing chores around the old homestead.

I have loved the Iri/Kiritsugu pairing since the beginning of this wonderful story; they are just so good together...I want to hear him tell her, "you complete me" rather than his being her demise...No! Say it ain't true!

 

[ImTakes]

QUOTE (senpai-kun @ Apr 15 2012, 08:25 AM) No you're probably spot on about Kiritsugu in this post; I was somewhat saying that all tongue-in-cheek.
I just read a very good background history on Kiritsugu and as a result, understand more the relationship between him and Maiya but also the solid bond and unbreakable one between him and Iri-chan. I won't go into detail so as not to spoil anything but let's just say there is no doubt there is some "history there."

Re-watching season one and will eventually read the story as it is written.

 

[Ryu]

looks like I wasn't the only one caught off-guard with this 3rd episode full of betrayals and hidden agendas first in the beginning when Maiya cut Sola-Ui's right hand but didn't kill her, I though "it would have been easier to snipe her just like with Ryuunosuke but instead she stopped that huge bleeding as ordered by Kiritsugu so they aren't as cold as I believed to even bother saving her" but how wrong I was -.- ...I knew something fishy was going on while I was wondering "well apparently they aren't the only ones sparing lives without killing their targets if it's not absolutely necessary", as also Kirei healed a burnt up Kiriya and helped him all the way instead of leaving him to his luck even if that meant betraying Tokiyomi

second how Kayneth killed Risei shortly after giving him a command seal to not let any other master have extras then blamed Lancer for not protecting Sola and how his master, before being sniped by Maiya was blackmailed to order him to commit suicide in the middle of his honorable fight with Saber (not that surprising coming from Kiritsugu who didn't let her and Iri know what he really planned) ¬¬
QUOTE (Killer_Ossi @ Apr 15 2012, 04:05 AM)
Too bad we didnt see Iskandars army fight against the monster, wouldve been a feast. But there was probably no time for this and I cant even imagine how extensive producing that scene with this animation quality would be (except Kariya burning of course -.-).
...I was thinking about what happened inside that reality marble and based from the episode with the annihilation of Assassins left in the open desert probably it was the same with Caster, I guess Rider's men couldn't fight that giant monster even with hundreds of soldiers so they had no choice but only stood far away from it and its tentacles until the Ionian Hetairoi time was up (I don't know if his noble phantasm can recreate a sea or any other enviroment but maybe the details can be found in the F/Z light novels)

 

[ImTakes]

And so it is...denied an honorable death, the noble and tragic Lancer meets his death in rage and despair...Saber could only stand and watch as he went down in humiliation, cursing the inhuman monster who brought about his shameful death...R.I.P., noble one.

The end of honor, indeed.

 

[Norren]

Tragically, Diarmuid could never have anything but that fate, he's got a Geas on him to that effect. All he ever wanted was a master he could serve loyally until death, that would reward and trust him accordingly.

If in Kayneth's shoes, Kiritsugu would have simply put a bandaid over Diarmuid's love spot.

That's how badly borked Lancer's situation is. For want of a bandaid.

 

[ImTakes]

QUOTE (Norren @ Apr 21 2012, 09:42 PM) Tragically, Diarmuid could never have anything but that fate, he's got a Geas on him to that effect.  All he ever wanted was a master he could serve loyally until death, that would reward and trust him accordingly.


I was upset...I hated him being betrayed like that by that fool who was his master. Selfish, that fool was, seeking for his own and that of the woman who did not even care for him but thought of Lancer in her pending death...was he so blind as to think K-kun would let him off the hook just because of a piece of paper? Ah! Lancer! I hate the way you died! You deserved better...so much better. The cards played you were cruel indeed...no wonder Saber and Iri were shocked but then again, with such a ruthless battle at hand where cunning, betrayal, and killing is the norm, who can remain idealistic and still want for honor? Not I...

 

[Killer_Ossi]

I totally didnt see that coming. Lancer got the worst kind of death he couldve got. Not to forget Sora-Ui. Too bad that she died since she was a great beauty. But how come she was so gone in her mind? What happened to her? In season one she was still sane.
This wont be the last such scene we will get since now every ep someone will die.

Im really beginning to despise Kiritsugu for his actions. They may be effective but they are totally not beautiful to watch as it should be for such a battle Royale tournament (cant really call it a war since nobody has an army, except Iskandar of course, and maybe Assassin to a degree).
No surprise Iri fainted since for her who was sheltered all her life this mustve been the worst scene she ever saw.
I totally wouldnt be surprised if in the end Saber is the one killing Kiritsugu. I at least would if I were in her shoes. After all the GARness she was in this fight to get her fight ended like that is just, I dont know, I dont have words for that.

 

[daedalron]

She can't really kill him, as he has the command seals to stop her if she tried.
However, if I were in her shoes, I wouldn't do anything for him. If he wants me to do anything, he'd have to use one of his seals for that, even if what he ask is mundane. The master may have the upper hand due to his seals, but the servant is not a mere slave. If he wants to make his master's life a living hell, he can.

 

[Norren]

Saber doesn't even want to kill him - she both pities and respects Kiritsugu after his little outburst about war. In the books, it makes a point to emphasize how she realizes of all the masters, Kiritsugu is the only one with a just and noble wish- the child's dream of world peace. I'm not sure how they're going to state, let alone underscore that given how they skipped over her little inner monologue. Maybe it'll show up as an extended scene in the bluray versions, or maybe they'll have her talk to Iri about it in a little bit.

She still doesn't like him, and loathes his methods but- she understands him now. Look no farther than the hill of slaughter to see how well she understands what Kiritsugu called the "crime" called victory. This mutual understanding now forms the foundation of their partnership, finally established for the first time since her summoning a year ago. With this as a beginning, they continue forward into the second half of the grail war.

Recall in Fate/Stay Night, ten years later, when sitting around a table with Shirou and Rin, Saber describes Kiritsugu as the perfect master without a negative word to be said, and even claimed to know him well.

The reason for Iri's collapse will become apparent soon, she should explain it to Saber next episode.

 

[ImTakes]

QUOTE (Norren @ Apr 22 2012, 10:01 AM) She still doesn't like him, and loathes his methods but- she understands him now. Look no farther than the hill of slaughter to see how well she understands what Kiritsugu called the "crime" called victory. This mutual understanding now forms the foundation of their partnership, finally established for the first time since her summoning a year ago. With this as a beginning, they continue forward into the second half of the grail war.
Recall in Fate/Stay Night, ten years later, when sitting around a table with Shirou and Rin, Saber describes Kiritsugu as the perfect master without a negative word to be said, and even claimed to know him well.

When listening to Kiritsugu's rant about the ravages of war, I found myself agreeing with him and thought Saber still too idealistic when she disagreed, but now that you have added more light on the matter of that conversation, it makes perfect sense. I too, was thinking of the hill of slaughter and her standing there...sure looked like despair to me and no look of victory. If after this conversation, like you have said, Norren-san, they have finally understood each other, I am all for that since they will be formidable with that added and most important bonus.

 

[Kit-Tsukasa]

So it seems that many people are surprised with the turn of events here if you haven't read the novels

I expect the most recent episode to be thoroughly expanded in the Blu-Rays. There was a lot of rushing in this episode even though everything played out quite well in the end. Most importantly, they explicitly left out Lancer cursing Saber, Kayneth, and Kiritsugu as he was dying. Saber included since Lancer thought she knew exactly what Kiritsugu was trying to do. It seems they also left out the part where Lancer stabs himself unless that was instead censored.

Either way, I really did not expect them to finish this all in one episode given the pace of the series, but with this, we now near the end of the third novel with one final part left, which I expect to be resolved next episode.

QUOTE Recall in Fate/Stay Night, ten years later, when sitting around a table with Shirou and Rin, Saber describes Kiritsugu as the perfect master without a negative word to be said, and even claimed to know him well.
This becomes more apparent as the story goes on particularly when Irisviel is captured by Kirei and Kiritsugu is thus forced to spend more time with Saber, especially in the final day of the war.

As for Sola-Ui losing her arm, I'm still laughing at this because of how much she resembles Bazett Fraga McRemitz from Fate/Hollow Ataraxia and how a similar fate befell on her

 

[Kid-Wolf]

QUOTE (Kit-Tsukasa @ Apr 22 2012, 02:20 PM) As for Sola-Ui losing her arm, I'm still laughing at this because of how much she resembles Bazett Fraga McRemitz from Fate/Hollow Ataraxia and how a similar fate befell on her
Kit-san you're not alone on that part, since I kind of got that deja vu ordeal with her looking like Bazett at the beginning of the episode here as well. I mean the way she looked, I almost thoguht that she was really Bazett there at one point.

Oh and speaking of deja vu I'm not reminded of what happened to Lancer in the UBW story arc of Fate/stay night now. I get this feeling that they wanted to kind fo tie certain elements into this series that tend to be kind of a reoccouring ordeal thoughout the Grail Wars.

In any case Kirisugu did show off as to how much of a badass he can be and not really care about the concenquences at all. Although he does have a point that the battlefield is a living hell no matter what anyone says or does about it. Even if you want to show honor in it, it's still a living hell no matter what though.

 

[Marine-RX179]

QUOTE (ImTakes @ Apr 22 2012, 11:51 AM) When listening to Kiritsugu's rant about the ravages of war, I found myself agreeing with him and thought Saber still too idealistic when she disagreed, but now that you have added more light on the matter of that conversation, it makes perfect sense. I too, was thinking of the hill of slaughter and her standing there...sure looked like despair to me and no look of victory. If after this conversation, like you have said, Norren-san, they have finally understood each other, I am all for that since they will be formidable with that added and most important bonus.

In a way, I think Kiritusgu is a bit similar to Lelouch of Code Geass. For the sake of making the world become truly at peace, he doesn't choose the method that will get him to there...how matter how unspeakable and dirty the method might seem, no matter how much sin he has to carry; should the world forever curse him as one of the most evil villian in history, so be it. If honour is something that will hinder him from reaching the goal, throwing it away would seem like the necessary and logical thing to do.

Actually there's quite a bit of irony and truth in what Kiritusgu said....Archer (of the Fate/Stay Night) is the perfect example of this. Shirou (Archer) eventually became a hero and saved the world few times over...but for the sake of saving more lives, he had to keep killing and kiling and get more blood on his hands...and at the end, he met with a tragic end which he was betrayed by the very people that he gave up everything for to try to save. I'm not sure if anyone remember, but in Fate Stay Night Rin once said to Shirou the way he place everyone else before the caring for himself is abnormal; you can actually see the simliarity on Kiritsugu which he has no love or care for himself, but with the difference knowing for the sake of saving lots more people, sacrifice of some people will be necessary and cannot be avoid. Shirou on the other hand doesn't come to realisation of "you can't save everyone" until he became a hero himself and eventually die with regret and despair.

I think that's a quote from the original Fate Stay Night game...it was something along the line of "the king saved the kingdom, but the kingdom didn't save the king". So in a way, Kiritusgu, Saber and Shirou are simliar in the sense of seeing very little value in their own well-being and existence. All three of three if you are prepared to sacrifice themselves at any given time, should it ensure their that wish will be fulfilled.

On the note of Lancer...I do feel very sorry for him. It was like no one in the world understood him, and the only person in the world understood and acknowledged him for who he is betrayed him at the end (or so he thought as he was at his dying moment). Despite being enemies, Saber was probably the only person who he could considered as a friend.

 

[Kit-Tsukasa]

QUOTE (Marine-RX179 @ Apr 23 2012, 12:39 AM) Despite being enemies, Saber was probably the only person who he could considered as a friend.
except that he cursed her in the novel as he was dying

On another note, it seems that many may have forgotten that Saber does not acknowledge her dream/wish as idealistic until she meets Shirou in Fate/Stay Night, so her thoughts and stubborn attitude towards Kiritsugu should really not come as a surprise for the rest of the series. People also seem to have forgotten that she only recognizes Kiritsugu's actions in Fate/Stay Night too after learning the Grail's true form.

 

[Norren]

QUOTE (Kit-Tsukasa @ Apr 23 2012, 10:33 PM) On another note, it seems that many may have forgotten that Saber does not acknowledge her dream/wish as idealistic until she meets Shirou in Fate/Stay Night, so her thoughts and stubborn attitude towards Kiritsugu should really not come as a surprise for the rest of the series. People also seem to have forgotten that she only recognizes Kiritsugu's actions in Fate/Stay Night too after learning the Grail's true form.
A subject much easier discussed once a few unveils happen.

If only our noble king of knights had understood what Rider was trying to tell her. His comments about how tragic the light of Excalibur is are truly an understatement, and oh to somehow hear his comments on Excalibur's light after the end of the Fate route in F/SN.