Drug Ethics

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EggBeast

- deska`
Retired
QUOTE (khael @ Feb 07 2008, 06:47 PM) How the hell did the discussion turn to placebos?
I concur!

QUOTE (khael @ Feb 07 2008, 06:47 PM)Yeah i agree with this. Obama FTW.
I concur!

QUOTE (khael @ Feb 07 2008, 06:47 PM)And quite a good point actually. If placebos work as damn well as drugs, why not use it instead of drugs?
Hast thou a sufficient knowledge of medication theory? A good number of my family work in the medical field, and a bro-in-law of mine is currently working on his Phd in biochemistry (he'll be developing drugs and such), and as such, I've got a bit of know-how with the drugs. Placebo effect is humiliatingly effective and all, but it mostly has to do with manipulating your thoughts (which sometimes leads to an actual physical manifestation, although it depends upon your condition). Cancer, for example, no matter how much you imagine a sugar-pill is killing those mutated cells, they ain't.

Medications actually cause chemical reactions, changing certain... well... chemicals in the body, providing a wide range of effects, effects which occur whether or not you imagine them to.

...but there's always the mass medical conspiracy theory, if you're into conspiracy theories. I'm not so much.

No one here is claiming that wishful thinking will cure every ailment, but you can't take it out of the equation, either.

...but yeah, I'm not so sure how much that relates to the thread's topic, maybe I missed a point somewhere...
 

overfiend1976

-san
Kouhai
QUOTE (khael @ Feb 07 2008, 09:47 PM) And quite a good point actually. If placebos work as damn well as drugs, why not use it instead of drugs?
Never claimed they worked as well, just that they work. And as far as how did this discussion get to placebos in the first place....IDK, tangents FTW?
 

monsta666

-the bee's knees
Kouhai
QUOTE (khael @ Feb 07 2008, 09:47 PM)How the hell did the discussion turn to placebos?

My understanding (correct me if I'm wrong) is the whole placebo thing is supposed to prove mind over matter. Meaning the mind can overcome anything (addiction to drugs whatever) and you (overfiend) were trying to make this point with that study you presented. That's what I think the whole placebo point was about...I think
 

overfiend1976

-san
Kouhai
Careful! Thinking is dangerous in this day and age! Perhaps that was my point, but I had noticed somewhere along the line before anyone else mentioned it on here that I had indeed gone on some tangent
 

Gustav1976

-sama
Retired
In Britain it is actually illegal to give a patient a placebo but tell them it's the real thing for obvious reasons.
So placebos may only be used in controlled trials.
And yes thinking is the most dangerous thing on the planet after all it's what got humanity into the state it's in at the moment
 

overfiend1976

-san
Kouhai
QUOTE (Anthrax117 @ Feb 08 2008, 09:02 AM) just legalize cannabis and ban everything else... thats my solution.
Yah. And if the government were to be regulating it in the way that they do cigarettes, selling packs of joints or whatnot, I'm betting the recession would go away.
 

monsta666

-the bee's knees
Kouhai
The general consensus here seems to be that cannabis should be legalised. That's my impression anyway so let us move on to harder drugs like speed/amphetamines i.e. class B drugs (don't know the classification in America). Should these drugs be legalised as well?
 

overfiend1976

-san
Kouhai
QUOTE (monsta666 @ Feb 09 2008, 04:09 AM) The general consensus here seems to be that cannabis should be legalised. That's my impression anyway so let us move on to harder drugs like speed/amphetamines i.e. class B drugs (don't know the classification in America). Should these drugs be legalised as well?
In this ghetto bullshit fucked up nation of the United States of America, marijuana gets the same classification as heroin, DMT, China White, and MDMA (Ecstasy). Thats right folks, it's a Schedule ONE drug. Things like morphine, codeine, cocaine, PCP, opium, and most narcotics are LOWER on the 'danger' list. Now do you see why I am so vehemently opposed to 'marijuana regulations?' As far as your question about the other drugs, they should stay on the 'illegal section' unless being utilized and administered properly by a hospital or treatment center. Here's some reading material for you, gathered from the good ol United (but full of shit) States of America government.



http://0225.0145.01.040/dea/pubs/scheduling.html
 

monsta666

-the bee's knees
Kouhai
overfiend You really hate America's policies on drugs (especially Bush). In Britain cannabis is a class C drug (the lowest grade) and if your caught in possession you often only get a slap on the wrist. Didn't realise cannabis would be classified as a schedule one drug (that sucks) and would be classed above cocaine. I have to admit this is a strange decision taken by the American government.
 

khael

/人◕ ‿‿ ◕人\ being M
Sempai
So placebos ain't the way to go eh? Well i guess it would be quite troublesome, a riot actually, if the addicts find out they were taking sugar pills instead of their "medication".

@overfiend

Ah so you were talking about cannabis? LOL i only found out now.
 

monsta666

-the bee's knees
Kouhai
QUOTE (khael @ Feb 10 2008, 06:52 PM)So placebos ain't the way to go eh? Well i guess it would be quite troublesome, a riot actually, if the addicts find out they were taking sugar pills instead of their "medication".

LOL, I guess the doctors could give them a new patch of placebos. It would stave off the mob for a few weeks!

Anyway one big defence on legalising cannabis is its potential medical uses. Cannabis has been proven to suppress feelings of nausea after undergoing chemotherapy. It also increases appetite something useful for AIDS. Furthermore it also eases muscle spasms something that would greatly help patients suffering from the incurable condition known as multiple sclerosis. Okay the studies are limited but if the drug were legalised these effects can be studied more widely, benefiting all of society. That said morphine (a derivative of heroin) is used as pain killer in hospitals but you don't see people talking about legalising heroin.
 

Cloak

-chi
Kouhai
I don't believe it is any ones individual right to not try each and every day to reach there full potential as a human being, drug abuse is of purely negative consequence to the outcome of ones life as a whole.

Even though they may be at Liberty to do so it is never "right".

And though I am in favor of the very small government and a fan of Libertarian philosophy I can not in good conscience endorse legalizing the use of substances in ways known harmful to the health of US citizens.
 

monsta666

-the bee's knees
Kouhai
QUOTE (Cloak @ Apr 29 2008, 09:02 PM)I don't believe it is any ones individual right to not try each and every day to reach there full potential as a human being, drug abuse is of purely negative consequence to the outcome of ones life as a whole.
Not everyone takes drugs to escape from reality. I know many friends who took weed as way of enjoying themselves. For example when they finished a exam instead of having some beer they would have a joint. Inevitably there will be some who go too far. Then again the same can be said of alcohol or cigarettes. In moderation there is no great harm. The problem with drugs in general is there use often effects others around you so the argument that it is my freedom to smoke doesn't always hold.

On the whole though I wouldn't be against legalising cannabis. The main area that concerns me is that weed has gotten stronger. With the stronger varieties of cannabis the risk of mental disorders increases (I believe). As long as the cannabis sold isn't too strong then there shouldn't be many problems. As for harder drugs I don't think they should be legalised. They would create far more problems than they would solve.
 

EggBeast

- deska`
Retired
QUOTE (monsta666 @ Jul 13 2008, 02:16 PM)As for harder drugs I don't think they should be legalised. They would create far more problems than they would solve.
I think we can both agree that illegal drugs are a problem, yeah? The drugs are out there, the drugs are getting sold, and the drugs are getting taken. This process cannot be regulated (except perhaps by police drug-busts), what with the activity being illegal and all.

But if drugs were to become legalized, they would obviously have to be regulated, yes? and it's that regulation that would make things better. You'll always have people trying to get their hands on whatever the can smoke/inject/whatever. If they can get these drugs from a controlled, safe, regulated source, many of the problems with conventional drug trade get eliminated. Suddenly the government has detailed records of how these drugs are being made, where they're coming from, where they're going and who they're going to. You get rid of the "forbidden fruit" complex, and you demolish most of the motivation for illegal drug trade, which, drugs aside, is very dangerous. (if movies are any indication
) Plus now the government can start promoting "safe" drug practices, as opposed to pure drug abstinence, and restrictions and punishments can be laid down much like conventional alcohol laws.

There's no question that drug abuse is no great thing, but to use that as justification to make drugs illegal, I say.

QUOTE You can catch more bees with honey than with vinegar.
 

monsta666

-the bee's knees
Kouhai
QUOTE (EggBeast @ Jul 19 2008, 09:55 AM)But if drugs were to become legalized, they would obviously have to be regulated, yes? and it's that regulation that would make things better. You'll always have people trying to get their hands on whatever the can smoke/inject/whatever. If they can get these drugs from a controlled, safe, regulated source, many of the problems with conventional drug trade get eliminated. Suddenly the government has detailed records of how these drugs are being made, where they're coming from, where they're going and who they're going to. You get rid of the "forbidden fruit" complex, and you demolish most of the motivation for illegal drug trade, which, drugs aside, is very dangerous. (if movies are any indication
) Plus now the government can start promoting "safe" drug practices, as opposed to pure drug abstinence, and restrictions and punishments can be laid down much like conventional alcohol laws.
When legalising drugs one should always consider the pros and cons before making a move. If we legalise illicit drugs they become:
Pros:
  • Drugs become safer (quality of drug is regulated).
  • Drugs become cheaper (they are no longer sold on the black market so cost of drugs is only dependant on the cost of making it).
  • Greater freedom
Cons:
  • Health care goes up
  • Crime is likely to go up
  • Drug user can harm other people (think of alcohol abuse and broken families).
  • Higher absenteeism (more people missing work).
And I'm not entirely convinced by this forbidden fruit argument. If the drug is legalised the amount of people using it will increase (in my opinion). You gotta remember a lot of people don't use drugs because it is illegal. Furthermore if the drug is "safer" (or should I say less dangerous) then more people will be less scared of taking it.

The reason I believe legalising marijuana can work is it not as addictive or expensive as other harder drugs. If we consider stuff like crack cocaine or heroin, people get addicted very quickly and will do anything to obtain these drugs (see crime). This won't change even if the drugs became legal. Furthermore I think the effects of the drugs are stronger and is likely to lead to more erratic behaviour. People on drugs for long periods of time will tend to lose grip on reality and may lash out on other people.
 

EggBeast

- deska`
Retired
What on earth is up with Maine?!

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/11/05/us/politics/05maine.html

They decide to LEGALIZE marijuana and BAN same-sex marriage? That seems like a very... strange set of laws to pass. It's been pretty cool seeing states (mostly California) easing up on their marijuana restrictions.

I guess I just always thought that legalizing illegal substances was MORE controversial than providing civil-rights to everyone, regardless of their sexual orientation.

Any thoughts?
 

warita200

-RETIRED-
Retired
QUOTE (EggBeast @ Nov 07 2009, 11:45 PM) What on earth is up with Maine?!

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/11/05/us/politics/05maine.html

They decide to LEGALIZE marijuana and BAN same-sex marriage? That seems like a very... strange set of laws to pass. It's been pretty cool seeing states (mostly California) easing up on their marijuana restrictions.

I guess I just always thought that legalizing illegal substances was MORE controversial than providing civil-rights to everyone, regardless of their sexual orientation.

Any thoughts?
it is indeed a weird combination. However I find it OK. Gay people can live with each other, love each other, do whatever they want, but they dont need to get married. I am not a fan of promoting gay/lesbian marriages, because it sends the message into the world, that it is OK, which in my opinion is not. But thats just my opinion, so please no bashing.
 

Gustav1976

-sama
Retired
Why is a same-sex marriage not OK? Marriage is not necessarily a religious thing.
I do though, agree that to legalise marijuana whilst banning same-sex marriages is just outright WEIRD.
I'd be interested to see the explanations by the local government officials if anybody could find them. Personally it seems like the government officials are just not very intelligent but I have always suspected that most governemtn officials aren't that smart to begin with.
 

EggBeast

- deska`
Retired
QUOTE (Gustav1976 @ Nov 11 2009, 06:16 PM) I'd be interested to see the explanations by the local government officials if anybody could find them. Personally it seems like the government officials are just not very intelligent but I have always suspected that most governemtn officials aren't that smart to begin with.
I guess this comes down to more of an issue of politics than marijuana/gay marriage.

I agree that most government officials are not anywhere NEAR intelligent enough to hold their post, but in the end it comes down the the people coming to vote at the ballot. I except that since gay marriage was previously legal in Maine, a lot of people didn't think it was necessary to come out to vote down a bill trying to ban it again, whereas all the neighborhood-friendly potheads and generally cool, easy-going people were really doing a push to expand the medical marijuana law.

I really wouldn't be surprised to see the gay marriage ban get overturned again come the next election. These elections all come down to mobilizing the right people, since most citizens don't actually turn out to vote on election day anyways.

Anyways, I'm running late for a group-project, layta!
 
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