Drug Ethics

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overfiend1976

-san
Kouhai
I wonder if it's so much as 'the people aren't ready for it,' or if it's more along the lines of 'no organization is willing to pony up and educate the masses properly for fear of retribution from the government/police.' Honestly, I'd do it myself, but I already know something. I know that the immense amount of 'anti-drug propaganda' that would magically perpetuate itself wherever I tried to teach would be far too overwhelming for me to compensate against. I think the people are ready, I just don't think anyone has the ability to fight absurdly powerful government propaganda machine. I know I sure as heck don't have millions upon millions of dollars to counter the smear tactics. *shrug* I don't think it will ever be a matter of 'readiness' I think it will always be a matter of sheer, inescapable pressure against success.
 

khael

/人◕ ‿‿ ◕人\ being M
Sempai
Just take a look at gay marriage for example, the US is split between conservatives and liberals. [I for one am for gay marriage] Well anyways, the point is the conservatives [as far as i can see it although i may be wrong] highly outnumber the liberals. Your post about alcohol is already an example. Do you think that if the government goes all out in educating people properly the conservatives would like it? There's already education about sex, about alcohol but yeah it isn't enough, that's why these things are still happening.

I'd say BEFORE they legalize it, make sure that the people are properly educated first, they could start with the generation of teens today. But even with saying that, i still believe that drugs shouldn't be legalized yet. Not now, later. You can't just legalize drugs out of the blue and educate people and expect that everything will go as planned. Education comes first. This is of course all regardless of the propaganda part.
 

Dalriada

-dono
Sempai
QUOTE I think the people are ready, I just don't think anyone has the ability to fight absurdly powerful government propaganda machine.

Let's take the example of tobacco
-Before, tobacco was free and people smoked.
-Today, tobacco is free, but with some restrictions (for example each box of cigarettes must have a sticker like 'Smoking can give cancer', 'Smoking decrease your fertility' etc). And people still smoke (Although the number decreased, mainly because the price increased. It still remains very significant.

So what can of education do you want ?

Don't forget that education is, practically, limited. Count the number of people entering middle school without reading/writing/counting properly. And being responsible is quite harder to learn than reading.
 

Gustav1976

-sama
Retired
Just thought I'd cloud the issue by telling you about somehing I learned a few eeks ago that makes sense but is astonishing if you haven't thought about it before.
Originally caffeine was used in much the same way as hard drugs is these days.
It wasn't something that was considered a normal thing and those that used it gradually increased the strength to ridiculous levels in order to keep getting the high they got from it.
Also let's not forget that originally Coke was called Coke for a reason
 

overfiend1976

-san
Kouhai
I think also, if excess weren't shown to us every step of the way, music, television, movies, et. al. showing people going to extremes of many things in such a glamorous fashion, that that would probably also help. Let's not forget, things like that also 'educate' people.
 

khael

/人◕ ‿‿ ◕人\ being M
Sempai
Yep the boob tube does anything other than help most of the time, but hey let's not forget about the conservative mindset of people. I for instance have seen first hand how their mindset works. When a family of a friend of mine were watching tv, there was an episode of Oprah on where they were showing lungs of people who smoke etc. etc.. I clearly heard the mother say "This is why you shouldn't smoke son, smoking is bad, smoking is a sin like gambling is, etc. etc. That's the problem i think, when it comes down to it we have to have a generation of liberal people who are ready to think outside their boxes if we want to legalize a long held cultural taboo like drugs. If the people aren't willing to learn we can't help them. As of today the American people are gradually becoming more and more liberal. One day for sure, in the future, some drugs will get legalized, but i don't think i'd ever live to see that day. [If i live up to 70 it's quite a possibility.]
 

overfiend1976

-san
Kouhai
Yeah. We haven't had a 'liberal' president since LBJ in 1964. Sure, we've had 'democrats' but they've all been quite conservative as well. And this last 8 year nightmare, hooooo boy, don't even get me started on that piece of shit in office. I definitely believe this nation would make great strides forward with a man like Obama in power. He's young, resourceful, energetic, hates government overkill (btw, he also is the only one out there who believes firmly in net neutrality, so addicts like us should definitely weigh THAT option), also, despite having mostly conservative tendencies, he's a far cry from the rest of the showing and I think could help speed the trend of this nation back towards liberalism.
 

monsta666

-the bee's knees
Kouhai
QUOTE (Gustl1976 @ Feb 06 2008, 07:02 AM)Just thought I'd cloud the issue by telling you about somehing I learned a few eeks ago that makes sense but is astonishing if you haven't thought about it before.
Originally caffeine was used in much the same way as hard drugs is these days.
It wasn't something that was considered a normal thing and those that used it gradually increased the strength to ridiculous levels in order to keep getting the high they got from it.
Also let's not forget that originally Coke was called Coke for a reason

The big difference between caffeine and the illicit drugs described here is it is not a mind altering drug nor does it adversely effect reaction times. Regarding the drink Coke my understanding was coke was forced to remove its contents in the late 19th century/early 20th century. I'm unsure how long Coke had cocaine in its drinks however so it might of been a case that people were unaware it contained cocaine, I'm really not sure...
 

overfiend1976

-san
Kouhai
Speaking of people being unaware of things, you should all do some looking into of the effects of placebos. Yet more proof of mind over matter.
 

Dalriada

-dono
Sempai
QUOTE (overfiend1976 @ Feb 07 2008, 11:05 AM) Speaking of people being unaware of things, you should all do some looking into of the effects of placebos. Yet more proof of mind over matter.
Placebos won't repair a cut leg (or cure cancer, AIDS and thousands of other diseases).
All proof of matter over mind.

Conclusion : Draw (or more pertinantly : oranges and apples).
 

overfiend1976

-san
Kouhai
Actually, yes they do. They've been known to work on asthma patients, cancer patients, migraine sufferers, and even drug addicts


"This is an example of the placebo effect - a self-made natural healing response of the body. A patient's belief in the treatment and the placebo response are dependent upon a variety of factors. First, the patient's expectations of treatment effects clearly influence the responses. For example, a study in England was done where 100 men were told that they were taking chemotherapy, when in actuality they were taking inactive saline solution. 20% of these men lost their hair, demonstrating the power of the belief of effects of the treatment. (4) Second, the relationship between patient and care-provider is quite important in determining treatment (or placebo) results. If there is a positive rapport between the two, then most often there will be a positive enthusiasm for the treatment, and therefore a positive outcome, no matter if a placebo or pharmacologic treatment was used. The friendliness, interest, sympathy, prestige, and positive attitude of the care- provider toward the patient and toward the treatment are associated with positive effects of placebos as well as of active treatments. For example, in a double- blind study of dental extractions, two groups were compared: the first, where the doctors knew they would administer either a narcotic analgesic, a placebo, or a narcotic antagonistic and the second, where the doctors knew they would administer either a placebo or narcotic antagonist. The patients from the first group who received placebo had significantly less pain. Since the two placebo groups were only different in the doctors' knowledge of possible treatment, this knowledge must have resulted in differences in behaviors by the doctor that influenced patient responses (3). Third, placebos have time- effect curves and peaks, cumulative and carryover effects after end of treatment which are quite similar to those of pharmacologically active medications. For example, "when varying doses of analgesic followed by a placebo are administered, patients' placebo responses correspond in degree of pain relief over time to their original dosage of analgesic" (3). In addition, dose-response effects have also been documented where two placebo pills were demonstrated to have more pronounced effects than one. "

Make sure you understand what I'm speaking of before you bash what I'm speaking of.
 

EggBeast

- deska`
Retired
I believe that I agree with overfiend's argument, what with the placebos and all. I think all Dalriada's talking about are the limitations of that mindset. If you lose an arm, no amount of wishful thinking will grow it back.

It's very difficult to determine the extent to which we have control over our own thoughts and actions, which is why it gets difficult to argue to what extent a drug user can be responsible for his/her actions. But I'm still with overfiend, in saying that there are responsible usages of drugs (at least relatively responsible ways), just like there are with everything.
 

Dalriada

-dono
Sempai
QUOTE (overfiend1976 @ Feb 07 2008, 02:42 PM) Actually, yes they do. They've been known to work on asthma patients, cancer patients, migraine sufferers, and even drug addicts tongue.gif
[...]
Make sure you understand what I'm speaking of before you bash what I'm speaking of.

So for you, making your hair fall without a chemio is 'working against cancer' ?
Do you undersand what you're writing (and incidently what I'm writing) or are you just putting some words on the computer ?

Placebo works on some troubles. And doesn't work at all for a lot of other troubles (which is exactly what I wrote).
So saying things like 'mind over matter'...

------------

QUOTE
But I'm still with overfiend, in saying that there are responsible usages of drugs (at least relatively responsible ways), just like there are with everything.

I don't deny that. I deny the fact that it's a good enough reason to legalize all drugs.
 

overfiend1976

-san
Kouhai
"I don't deny that. I deny the fact that it's a good enough reason to legalize all drugs."



'm still only saying cannibas sativa should be legalized. Eff all the rest. For personal use at least. I know cocaine and heroin will always be used in hospitals. When it comes to outright painkilling, you simply cannot compete.

And as far as "do I understand what I'm saying" goes. I'd sure as hell hope so, considering I used to work at PRA International in Kansas City. (e.g. a drug research/testing clinic). We administered placebos to EVERYONE for EVERY drug. And every single placebo had positive 'healing effects' as well as 'side effects', so, damned right, I believe that its mind over matter. I have personal proof positive.
 

monsta666

-the bee's knees
Kouhai
Overfiend can you please provide a source for this case study? There are number of issues that seem a bit odd with this case study firstly your sample size (100) is not a big enough for a medical study. Secondly the ethics of giving a patients a placebo without their knowledge must be questioned. These patients must have at least been aware that there was a possibility they were taking a placebo otherwise such a experiment could never be legally authorised (at least to my knowledge I will need to check on this to confirm it).

I'll admit the placebo effect can be surprising strong and can change our behaviour quite dramatically but to suggest it can result in physical manifestations (losing hair) is a bit much I don't care how much you believe a drug is working such things cannot happen.
 

Dalriada

-dono
Sempai
QUOTE (overfiend1976 @ Feb 07 2008, 03:28 PM) And as far as "do I understand what I'm saying" goes. I'd sure as hell hope so, considering I used to work at PRA International in Kansas City. (e.g. a drug research/testing clinic). We administered placebos to EVERYONE for EVERY drug. And every single placebo had positive 'healing effects' as well as 'side effects', so, damned right, I believe that its mind over matter. I have personal proof positive.
Sadly, it's just a logical fallacy.
All you could conclude is 'mind over matter, but only when matter is easy-going'.
 

overfiend1976

-san
Kouhai
How are matters 'easy going' if side effects include, bleeding ulcers, myopia, pain in your ears, persistent rash, migraines and even on rare occasion, death? If that's easy going, I sure for one don't wanna know what 'tough going' is
 

monsta666

-the bee's knees
Kouhai
If placebos are so good why do doctors bother giving their patients drugs? They would save a hell of a lot of money!
 

khael

/人◕ ‿‿ ◕人\ being M
Sempai
How the hell did the discussion turn to placebos?

QUOTE Yeah. We haven't had a 'liberal' president since LBJ in 1964. Sure, we've had 'democrats' but they've all been quite conservative as well. And this last 8 year nightmare, hooooo boy, don't even get me started on that piece of shit in office. I definitely believe this nation would make great strides forward with a man like Obama in power. He's young, resourceful, energetic, hates government overkill (btw, he also is the only one out there who believes firmly in net neutrality, so addicts like us should definitely weigh THAT option), also, despite having mostly conservative tendencies, he's a far cry from the rest of the showing and I think could help speed the trend of this nation back towards liberalism.

Yeah i agree with this. Obama FTW.


QUOTE If placebos are so good why do doctors bother giving their patients drugs? They would save a hell of a lot of money!

And quite a good point actually. If placebos work as damn well as drugs, why not use it instead of drugs?
 
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