Drug Ethics

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overfiend1976

-san
Kouhai
All well and good that you posted that nice little propaganda link, but did you take the time to scroll down and take the poll? If not, heres the results after my single vote was tallied.

Do you think cannabis should be made legal?


Results so far:
Yes (17095 votes) 82.5%
No (3627 votes) 17.5%
 

monsta666

-the bee's knees
Kouhai
QUOTE (overfiend1976 @ Jan 31 2008, 06:19 PM)All well and good that you posted that nice little propaganda link


Is this a reference to my link? I thought the BBC is reputable source that can be trusted. Unlike FOX news (which is the worst news channel I have ever seen) it tells news in a relatively unbiased way. Yes my opinion is against cannabis being legal (I feel you need to stick your neck out and say yes or no in these things) but my point I wanted to address was that cannabis has very real effects. We need to know all the facts before we can make an informed decision that's why I posted that section.

In my eyes smoking cannabis does not only effect the person but effect other people as well (passive smoking). If cannabis was legalised not only would non-smokers have to put up with tobacco smoke but cannabis smoke as well. I'm guessing if it were legalised it would probably be in the same position as smoking cigarettes (heavily taxed can't smoke in public places) but even if it is only allowed in the household more people will be exposed to the fumes namely children. Then there are other issues like will pregnant mothers smoking pot increase the chances of their babies having mental conditions e.g. schizophrenia.

Perhaps the government will gain extra money overall (cost for extra policing or/and hospital maybe less than revenue from extra taxing) but that doesn't justify legalising drugs. Why don't we legalise prostitution and make all prostitutes pay income tax while we're at it? The government will make even more money that way and everyone will be happy.
 

khael

/人◕ ‿‿ ◕人\ being M
Sempai
Yes no one wants to take responsibility. That's all the more reason why drugs shouldn't be legalised in my opinion. Yes this is my way of taking responsibility.

As for Europe, U.S. and Canada, i don't find anything different about how people are taught about drugs. Drug abuse = bad for your health, even in Europe, they are taught to respect it and are allowed to use it BUT NOT OVERDO IT. They are taught to be responsible. Well that's what i've seen so far, and that's not from the TV or whatever.

Besides, i think the difference comes in the religious belief. I remember a few bits about the history of Europe and the puritans [did i spell that right?] etc. Well i don't think it's stretching it or farfetched to say the least, that the difference arises from the culture.

That's why i said people aren't ready for it yet. My standpoint is like that of a father thinking whether to give his 14 year old son who's a delinquent what he wants. Unless he shapes up in his studies and be responsible, i won't give him anything he wants.
 

Gustav1976

-sama
Retired
could you define what you mean by drugs?
as an ex-scientist and a student nurse to me drugs include things like: nicoteine, caffeine and alcohol.
Also as a nurse oxygen as used in cylinders is classed as a drug and all the stuff you buy from the pharmacist is classed as a drug so that inlcudes aspirin, paracetamol, anything with codeine in etc.
So in my understanding the question should not be "shoulds drugs be legal?" but rather "which drugs should be legal?"
 

EggBeast

- deska`
Retired
gustl: well, this thread's pretty open in those regards, man. A big focus has been whether or not to make all illegal drugs legal, for reasons which have been argued for and against over and over.

But you could argue that only certain kinds of drugs should be legalized/illegalized. If you want to talk about certain types of drugs, then hey, talk about certain types of drugs, whatever floats your boat. These forums are cool like that.
 

Gustav1976

-sama
Retired
I would suggest that if things like cannabis were made legal then it should be enacted so that those who it is necessary for have both a doctors written verification and the user have regularly therapy/counselling sessions to ensure that the drug is not having an adverse affect beyond what cannot be helped.
There are plenty of experts around the world who able to identify when a dosage is causing an unwanted affect on people to make this possible. Indeed nurses and doctors do this on a regular basis.
We need to ensure that whilst ensuring people have access if needed they are not harmed in the process.
 

monsta666

-the bee's knees
Kouhai
QUOTE (Gustl1976 @ Feb 03 2008, 05:57 AM)could you define what you mean by drugs?
as an ex-scientist and a student nurse to me drugs include things like: nicotine, caffeine and alcohol.
Also as a nurse oxygen as used in cylinders is classed as a drug and all the stuff you buy from the pharmacist is classed as a drug so that includes aspirin, paracetamol, anything with codeine in etc.
So in my understanding the question should not be "should drugs be legal?" but rather "which drugs should be legal?"

Well I guess you could define a drug as any substance that can effect any physiological process in the body. Seeing as this definition is very broad (this definition could cover just about everything). What people are more interested in and generally class as drugs are substances that can affect thought processes in the brain. Like you said caffeine, nicotine and alcohol all effect the brain. These drugs are generally not considered in the debate as they are legal. The debate is about the illicit drugs, whether or not they should be legal. Yes I could agree with you that the title of article should be something like "should illicit drugs be made legal" as "drug ethics" could suggest our attitudes towards drugs generally and what unethical drug taking is e.g not taking prescription drugs in a responsibly way which could lead to antibiotic resistance etc etc.


QUOTE (khael @ Feb 03 2008, 05:26 AM)Drug abuse = bad for your health, even in Europe, they are taught to respect it and are allowed to use it BUT NOT OVERDO IT. They are taught to be responsible.

In most of Europe all drugs are considered illegal even cannabis you are perhaps thinking of the Netherlands were cannabis is legal but I can assure you no other drug is legal. OK so morphine is allowed to be taken legally (must be taken in a hospital under the observation of hospital staff) as well but I'm sure that is same in America and Canada as well. Perhaps the main difference is that America (perhaps Canada as well) takes a harder stance on drugs and if you get caught with them you face longer periods in prison.
 

Gustav1976

-sama
Retired
the tenchnical definition of a drug according to the scientific community is: any substance which is not normally present in the body or a substance in the body which is at unusually high levels (outside the norm)
 

overfiend1976

-san
Kouhai
You know, I've got yet to see anyone crash a car while smoking pot.

Seen plenty wreck while drunk.

I have yet to see anyone get 'beer muscles' and go pick fights with anyone that looks their way while smoking pot.

Seen plenty of drunk fights.

I have yet to see anyone go have sex with some dirty troll and get her knocked up while smoking pot.

Seen plenty of FUGLY babies conceived due to 'drunken sex.'

I have yet to see anyones liver, heart, skin or families fall apart due to smoking pot.

Seen PLENTY of the above due to drinking.

I have YET to see any legitimate scientific proof that marijuana causes any longterm effects outside of the tar.

I have yet to see any proof that alcohol doesn't kill you.

My father, when he was doing his masters thesis ages and days ago, did it on the effects of smoking marijuana and GPA's. He used 3 test groups, all of which had nearly identical average group GPA's throughout college.

Group 1 - Was allowed to smoke no marijuana.

Group 2 - Smoked moderately. Usually two joints or two bowls a day.

Group 3 - Smoked fairly heavily. 6+ joints or bowls a day.


Group 1 - Maintained their GPA.

Group 3 - GPA dropped by an average of 1 full grade point.

Group 2 - GPA raised by an average of 0.6 grade points.

This study was done over the course of an entire semester. So, yes, it may not be 'conclusive' evidence, but nevertheless it IS evidence that smoking pot in moderation does help. Especially in a stressful situation like college. It enables one to relax, focus, and direct their energies in more meaningful ways than worrying about, 'oh crap, I'm short on time, I've got too much to do, etc. etc. etc.' I don't condone that anyone go out and do illegal drugs, but I am simply saying that some of them have definite benefits that should not be overlooked or ignored. One of my fathers best friends has been smoking pot (a lot of it due to glaucoma) for over 30 years. He also owns a multi-million dollar ironworks plant and designs shopping centers, schools and other buildings throughout the North East US, has several houses and two private studios that he does his sculpting at. So, don't assume that just because you do drugs that you're a write off and a supposed loser. BTW, yes, he does make that much.

Est. Annual Sales:$3,700,000

Est. Employees:27

Est. Employees at Location:27

Contact Name:Noah Savett

Contact Title:president
 

khael

/人◕ ‿‿ ◕人\ being M
Sempai
DRUG ABUSE?!

My mistake, it should've been alcohol abuse. It was supposed to be a reply to a post in page 3, the one comparing Canada US and Europe's ways of dealing with the topics of alcohol and sex.

Lemme restate it.

Alcohol abuse = bad for your health, even in Europe, they are taught to respect it and are allowed to use it BUT NOT OVERDO IT. They are taught to be responsible.

LOL 48 hours of straight work really gets to me. Well, i'll be back in around 12 - 15 hours.

-EDITED-

Ninja posted.

Anyway...

I've seen lotsa families broken up because of people doing illegal drugs.

I've seen rugby boys first hand and got held up by one while he's sniffing rugby.

I've seen people skip eating just to do drugs.

What's my point in this? Well it's simply that just because you haven't seen some crime happen because of drugs doesn't mean it doesn't happen.

And yeah it has benefits. So? There are plenty other ways out there to let out stress, and a number of them are "free". Sports, excercise, hobbies etc. If it [drugs] was the only way i'd vouch for it. Drugs [in general] to reduce stress is just an alternative stress coping mechanism.

On that contact of yours, same reply, he can control himself yes, but that doesn't mean everyone else can. There are drunk people who stay quiet and just silently fall to sleep, there are some who stir up a ruckus, there are people who don't get drunk at all. Well i guess it's clear that not everyone is alike right? You can't guarantee that no one will abuse drugs when drugs get legalized.
 

overfiend1976

-san
Kouhai
IMO, they're less likely to be abused IF made legal. The whole forbidden fruit thing. You make drugs legal and at the same time educate people, I will guarantee without hesitation that drug abuse will drop drastically. People will ALWAYS AND FOREVER want what they can't/shouldn't have. There's less draw to it once you can have it without question. I drank more between 18-21 than I did when I turned 'of legal age.' It just, lost quite a bit of its appeal. And as far as, 'never seen a crime committed,' thats just absurd.

a. I've lived in some rather large cities. (New York City, Kansas City, Halifax...), so yeah, I've seen my share of crimes.

b. Bit guilty myself, seeing as how I used to swing for a number of years.

c. I've had friends/extended family die in dealings gone awry.

But as far as point c goes, I've known people to die for all sorts of reasons that a far stupider than that. *cough* road rage *cough*. That's a big one. Other useless arguments over basically nothing. In short, yeah, most people can't handle drugs, ofc., just like most people can't handle alcohol. But, certain drugs I do think should be permitted. Most others, however, should not.
 

EggBeast

- deska`
Retired
QUOTE (overfiend1976 @ Feb 03 2008, 04:11 PM) IMO, they're less likely to be abused IF made legal. The whole forbidden fruit thing. You make drugs legal and at the same time educate people, I will guarantee without hesitation that drug abuse will drop drastically. People will ALWAYS AND FOREVER want what they can't/shouldn't have.
Wahoo!!! Agreement! One of the huge arguments going on here is that legalizing drugs will result in a drug abuse explosion! But I really don't think that's the case at all. If you combine controlled, but legal, drug distribution along with education and an emphasis on responsibility, I really don't think we'll see the problems a lot of people are fearing.

*high-fives overfiend*
 

monsta666

-the bee's knees
Kouhai
It's difficult to say whether people will abuse drugs if it becomes legalised, it really depends on the countries culture and attitude towards drugs. For example in most of mainland Europe (France, Italy etc) alcohol is seen as a social activity and is not abused that much even though people are exposed to alcohol at a early age e.g children will have wine with parents during a meal.

In other countries like England and Ireland there is more of a binge culture. To try to tackle this problem the government made a law where there is 24 hour licensing for alcohol. The reasoning behind this law was if consumption of alcohol was less restricted people wouldn't crave it so much (sort of like what overfiend said). Did that reduce alcohol abuse? No it is worse than ever! This is because binge drinking is part of Britain's culture and changing the law did not change peoples' attitude and the extra opening hours were just seen as extra time to get hammered.
 

Dalriada

-dono
Sempai
QUOTE It's difficult to say whether people will abuse drugs if it becomes legalised, it really depends on the countries culture and attitude towards drugs. For example in most of mainland Europe (France, Italy etc) alcohol is seen as a social activity and is not abused that much even though people are exposed to alcohol at a early age e.g children will have wine with parents during a meal.

The lack of binge culture doesn't prevent some of the worst part of the problem of alcoholism (Here, I think about the alcohol-related traffic accidents, but especially the mood of a family whose one parent is alcoholic. It's really not a bed of roses for the kids).
 

overfiend1976

-san
Kouhai
Education is essential. If you want a 100% proof positive example of that; look at India. Before not too very long ago, the rate of unplanned pregnancies and STD's in India was UN FREAKING REAL. Suddenly, some people started taking initiative against those facts. No. Sex wasn't made illegal. No, nothing of the sort. What happened was, a few soap operas started airing on the more popular stations, which advocated safe sex practices and such. Also, counselors would attend schools and give of their free, unpaid time to teach the youth about safe practices. What happened after a few years of this pro-active approach? Unplanned pregnancies and disease due to the new found education and availability of protection plummeted. Not over the slow course of time, but within months, rates started dropping drastically. I am a FIRM believe that with education (not propaganda, but REAL education), all of the problems of humanity can be abated. Yes, probably not resolved, but at least, lessened.
 

EggBeast

- deska`
Retired
*gives overfiend a double atomic high-five*

when I tried pulling that education bizness on the thread earlier, I got smacked in the face with "you seem to have an excessively over-idealized version of the world in your head", but education truly is key. Telling teens not to have sex doesn't stop them from having sex. Telling teens how to have safe, responsible sex stops teens from getting pregnant. If you place an emphasis on personal responsibility, it doesn't assume that everyone is perfectly responsible, it just tells people how to act responsibly.

And yes, I completely agree that education is the key to solving oh-so many of the world's problems. I look at the load of political problems going on, and the solutions always seem to boil down to educating the masses. (that's plays into why my one and only pet peeve is ignorance
, although it goes beyond being a pet peeve)
 

khael

/人◕ ‿‿ ◕人\ being M
Sempai
Yes education is essential. Yes it will help people to take responsibility. But let's take another look at it. Let's talk about US. Last time i checked, there was proper education on alcohol, its bad and good effects, what will happen if you abuse it etc. All of it is taught. You yourself said that alcohol related incidents in the US is higher than that of EU. See the difference?

Educating people of today is not enough since a lot of people out there are already uneducated. I stand by my stance before which hasn't changed, drug shouldn't be legalised yet. YET.

If you really want drugs legalized you have to prepare the people first. You have to make them responsible first. If you legalize drugs now, i don't think your idea of what will happen will come true. I can't imagine what will happen if drugs get legalized. I'm sure there will be an increase in the drug using population since the "unknown" drug users will come to light [highly logical since not ALL drug users are listed anyway]. I'm not saying that it will all blow out of proportion take note of that. What i'm not sure about is the specifics.

So again, my stance still holds, drugs shouldn't be legalized yet.
 

overfiend1976

-san
Kouhai
Eh??! There's no 'education' about alcohol in the United States...unless you consider endless advertising by Anheiseur-Busch and others as 'education.' Showing kids that 'drinking is cool' and what not. If you think back (and perhaps you might not know this), all forms of alcohol advertising used to be banned in the United States not too very long ago before beer/liquor bureaucrats had their way and weaseled their materials back into magazines and television. Also, DARE counselors and health class teachers slamming the evils of drinking and utilizing absurd, entirely out-dated scare tactics to make kids stop drinking, isn't a form of 'education.' That's merely adding fuel to the proverbial 'forbidden fruit' complex. Education about alcohol would mean these teachers would have to start telling kids that, 'hey, abusing alcohol is just plain stupid, as is driving under the influence, but hey, also, having a glass or two of wine a day has great benefits for your heart. Also, drinking in moderation in social situations while making sure at all times that you behave in a responsible fashion and always utilize a designated driver or call a cab, can also be a blast. Because, hey kiddies, having fun is important, but taking things in stride and being smart about it is also important.' Do you know what would happen in most schools in this frantic, chaotic, P/C environment known as the United States, if a teacher were to come out and say those things? To tell kids drinking is OK, but you have to be sensible about it? They'd lose their job faster than you could say, 'there's no place like wtf?' In this day and age, you can't even be a teacher and give a kid a hug without fear of retribution. And again. Keeping things away from people without REALLY telling them why, does, has, and always WILL backfire. Yet, educators and 'panic driven' lobbyists and parents just don't seem to get this. Don't make the argument that 'bad bad bad bad bad bad bad bad bad bad bad.' WTF is that going to do? Simply make people think to themselves, 'huh, but is it really all that bad?!' Then they go try it, and because they have no point of reference, this 'trying it' becomes a perpetual habit. I'm lucky enough to have two parents that value hard work, having a great education, and doing well in everything positive that you try. BUT! They also firmly believe in being open about things and that natural curious experimentation is essential to good development. They never said, 'hey go smoke pot.,' but they always made sure I knew both the benefits and the risks involved. So I never had to hide my smoking from them. And no, I don't mean like irresponsible parents do and just turn their cheeks to the fact that their children get high, but stand as a reminder and always make sure that they ask questions and talk about things. This pro active role that my parents took with me, both with smoking pot, doing LSD and drinking are why I never abused any of the above. Because it was never a forbidden fruit thing for me. Because I knew both sides of the coin at all times from a very young age. I never thought, 'huh, what could they possibly be hiding from me?! Well, since they can't be open with me about crap, maybe I shouldn't be open with them and let them know the things that I have chosen to try.' etc. etc. etc. You see, there's a HUGE discrepancy between an 'education' and a 'PROPER education.' They are absolutely nothing alike, and should never be confused.
 

monsta666

-the bee's knees
Kouhai
Yes I agree with overfiend. I don't live in America but my impression of their attitude towards alcohol is, its really bad and if you take it your a terrible person. This probably contributes to some of America's problem with alcohol e.g high incidents of drink driving, excessive use of alcohol as soon as they reach the legal age of drinking. What would probably be better is if alcohol is introduced at a early stage in a controlled environment i.e. have a small amount of beer/wine during a meal with parents. Yes I can certainly imagine if a teacher said this in America they would get butchered and probably labelled as some sort of devil.

I don't think education is the key to responsible use of drugs. Like everything I think the family has a bigger influence on your behaviour than the state. Education on drugs will not necessarily help the situation for example Britain has lots of sex education classes in school but teenage pregnancies remains the highest in Europe, so education will not always work. What is more important are people attitudes towards drugs. If it's the same as alcohol then it will probably be used in a similar manner. If on the other hand people think it is something that is used good in moderation it will probably be used more sensibly. Call me crazy if you will but if it introduced to people at a relatively young age in a family setting it will actually help people use the drug responsibly as it will be seen normal thing. Just to reiterate I think this only applies to cannabis! I really can't support the legalisation of speed, cocaine, heroin and other drugs, or at the very very very least don't legalise all of them at the same time it will just lead to chaos!
 

khael

/人◕ ‿‿ ◕人\ being M
Sempai
QUOTE Education about alcohol would mean these teachers would have to start telling kids that, 'hey, abusing alcohol is just plain stupid, as is driving under the influence, but hey, also, having a glass or two of wine a day has great benefits for your heart.

Actually this was exactly what my cousin told me when he said he learned something about alcohol at school. I think it was a seminar or something of the like where an outside organization talks about alcohol or whatever topic they like etc. etc.

Lemme check again, and yeah i accept the possibility that this might not be the case for all schools and that this isn't enough. Yep just seminars isn't enough.

On the teachers, i think they're most likely to get butchered by the highly conservative American populace, but i think they can get backing from the liberal people. It's very similar to the gay marriage/gay rights debates going on.

On another note, that last post you made [overfiend] just helped me reinforce my stance.

Drugs shouldn't be legalised yet, the people aren't ready for it...
 
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