Denmark VS Islam

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Dalriada

-dono
Sempai
QUOTE watch
patcondell
and other of his videos; not only intelligent but also funny

Completely idiotic.
Europe doesn't even have an unified view or an unified politic towards immigration, so how could we speaking of Europe's cultural suicide ? For example the models of integration in the UK and in France are completely different.

Sure, both have problems with the current immigration wave from the muslim world (Let's note that migrants don't come from the same countries by the way. UK has an important part of muslim migrants from Pakistan or India, France from Maghreb, Germany from Turkey). And those problems need to be solved, or it may fester.
But then, they (at least France, but I daresay similar situations happened in other countries) also had problems with the previous immigration waves (The feelings against Italians or Polishs were harsh in France). Which are now perfectly integrated, if you wonder.

So, allow me to put this fellow patcondell with Bat Ye-or, into the paranoid, racists conspirationists.

I haven't listen to the second link, his accent makes it a bit difficult. If you have a transcript...
 

monsta666

-the bee's knees
Kouhai
QUOTE (void_er @ Mar 28 2008, 08:49 PM)watch
patcondell
and other of his videos; not only intelligent but also funny

Intelligent? Hardly this is the sort of tribe I would expect to hear in a BNP speech. In others words it is a speech made by a racist fool. Not only does it stereotype political attitudes towards immigration in Europe (what Dalriada said) but it also stereotypes Muslims. According to him all Muslims beat women or degrade them. They all force women to wear hijabs (full veils) and they all hate Jewish people. Outlandish claims that are not only false but pretty offensive. His speech can be summed up by this comment


QUOTE Islamic culture is not equal it is inferior

Don't tell me this is an intelligent comment. Another cracker was this statement "multiculturalism a poisonous fiction fed to society." Please. I guess the extremists (who are the minority) will always gain more media attention than the conservative Muslims (who make up the vast majority). After all it makes for a better headline to say this Muslim wants to bomb country x instead of this Muslim wants peace. Unfortunate but sadly largely true.

After the horror show of the first video I was reluctant to look at the second link. Fortunately it is not of a similar level and it does show a valid point and certainly provides some food for thought. It can be quite scary how influential these terrorist groups can be in recruiting people.
 

void_er

-chan
Kouhai
i do not think he is a racist... watch some other of his videos...and try to look at it objectively

also the
Dr. Tawfik Hamid - "The Roots of Jihad" 1/6
has 6 parts, watch them all; it says a lot of things that I honestly wouldn't have belived if they came out of a non-muslim;

also watch Hirsi Ali: Is Islam Compatible with Liberal Democracy? 1/6
who ran away to Denmark at the age of 16 - a very smart lady

ppl of the moderate wing of islam said similar things

after I watch them and made a little more research I came to a conclusions similar to patconell

one of the points these videos make is that after 30 years of... "radicalization" lets call it,
islam - the true islam is the extremist and the majority;
the moderate islam is in minority (and some of them persecuted... more than they normally are) and is in no position to go against extremists
 

monsta666

-the bee's knees
Kouhai
Perhaps what I said earlier did not seem objective so I will try and make it clearer. The problem that Patcondell describes can be split into two broad categories. A problem of integration (or lack of it) and the threat of unsavoury Islamic behaviour. The problem of immigration is a very real problem but like Dalriada said this problem is not limited to Muslims. This is an ongoing problem and is present with any emigrant community. Therefore to single out Muslims is unfair.

Secondly the behaviour he describes of Muslims namely being homophobic, anti-Semitic and abusive to women is not true. It is true some extremists are like this but this is not typical of the larger community. So this statement is also false. Further you say he is not racist yet he says Islamic culture is inferior. Using the definition of racism:

QUOTE racism
–noun
1. a belief or doctrine that inherent differences among the various human races determine cultural or individual achievement, usually involving the idea that one's own race is superior and has the right to rule others.
2. a policy, system of government, etc., based upon or fostering such a doctrine; discrimination.
3. hatred or intolerance of another race or other races.


This statement is clear proof that he is in fact a racist so this statement is in fact an objective one.

As for the video of the roots of Jihad I am not disputing how influential these groups are. In fact a sizeable number of their recruits are university students hardly stupid people.


QUOTE (void_er @ Mar 28 2008, 11:00 PM)after I watch them and made a little more research I came to a conclusions similar to patconell

one of the points these videos make is that after 30 years of... "radicalization" lets call it,
islam - the true islam is the extremist and the majority;
the moderate islam is in minority (and some of them persecuted... more than they normally are) and is in no position to go against extremists

I am sorry but I disagree with everything you say here. I question the sources of your research. Then again this is a free country and you are perfectly entitled to your opinion but I stand by what I said.
 

Dalriada

-dono
Sempai
Fun game : tell us the three biggest (as in 'with the biggest population') muslim countries on the world.
Then the speech about radicalizion of muslims and cultural suicide of Europe seems a bit silly.

Of course, it doesn't mean we should be angelic about Islam. I do think that some trends of Islam are indeed not compatible with democracy. But some trends doesn't mean Islam.
There's millions of muslims in Europe who are perfectly fine with the democratic process, the laws of the country they live in, the surrounding culture (It doesn't mean they agree with everything. But I don't agree with every law, nor with every aspect of France either).
And should those muslims be a majority in France ? I'll sleep as well as today.

About the accusation of antisemitism...
It does happen with young people -not always muslims- with a background of poverty, unemployement, grim suburbs, fuelled by the stupid policy of Israel. A confusion between sionism, Israel, Judaism, Jews.
The accusations of antisemitism against anyone critizicing the sionism or Israel by some pro-Israel organizations don't help to clear this confusion, in my opinion.
 

void_er

-chan
Kouhai
Dalriada wrote:
QUOTE There's millions of muslims in Europe who are perfectly fine with the democratic process, the laws of the country they live in, the surrounding culture
I would like to point out that they islamic organizations are trying to impose sharia not only upon muslims, but also the country they emigrate/work

monsta666 wrote:

QUOTE problem is not limited to Muslims. This is an ongoing problem and is present with any emigrant community. Therefore to single out Muslims is unfair.
I do not think it is unfair... if most/all muslims tried to integrate it would not be a problem;
but they are not trying to integrate
and what about their children - even if they come from moderate parents, after they go to muslin schools(with teacher that are mostly extremists)... what will become of them?

monsta666 wrote:

QUOTE
Secondly the behaviour he describes of Muslims namely being homophobic, anti-Semitic and abusive to women is not true.
I would like to point out that the islamist religion permits and encourages such behavior
It is well known that homosexuality is punished by death not only by sharia law, but also by the law of the state
also those who renounce islam are murdered
woman who are raped are punished by law; and they are lucky if they escape being murdered
men who rape are not punished
beating of woman is allowed... and not even frowned upon
and a lot of them are anti-Semitic: muslim schools teach children to call jews: pigs and monkeys;
etc
all these are are facts; they happen every day in the middle-east

monsta666 wrote:

QUOTE Further you say he is not racist yet he says Islamic culture is inferior.
he says it is inferior as it pertains to religion; he has no problem with skin color; or with ppl who are not blinded by religion

if you ask islamists about wester civilization they will say it is inferior; they will talk about debauchery, homosexuality, indolence, degradation, etc...
their political/religious leaders will say why islam is superior... and why it deserves to rule all people

now ... if we think about modern countries now and how they were 200-300 (or more or even less) years ago... I think most will agree that how they are now is much better, that it is superior, that they now have laws, society, rules of conduct that are much better;
the people are the same... but they have a different education

and I think that a society that allows man to treat woman as cattle; that executes heretics, homosexuals, blasphemers, witches, that represses sexuality, that threats victims as criminals, that does not condemn terrorism but actively encourages it ... is a bad society and inferior to the modern view of the world ... even if some or most of its citizens are good ppl

monsta666 wrote:

QUOTE I am sorry but I disagree with everything you say here. I question the sources of your research
my sources of information are not only western views ... I thouth they were exaggerated actually
what changed my opinions are the former islamists, moderates muslims, and the extremists views.
 

Dalriada

-dono
Sempai
QUOTE I would like to point out that they islamic organizations are trying to impose sharia not only upon muslims, but also the country they emigrate/work

I do not think it is unfair... if most/all muslims tried to integrate it would not be a problem;
but they are not trying to integrate
and what about their children - even if they come from moderate parents, after they go to muslin schools(with teacher that are mostly extremists)... what will become of them?

Bollocks.
the vast majority of muslim migrants (at least in France, I can't really speak for other countries) tries to integrate. And when they fail, it's mainly for economical factors (unemployement is a bitch). It doesn't mean there's no problem (people will remember some riots in our suburbs a few years ago), but that the problem is not a muslim problem.

And there's must be less than five muslim schools in the country, under the eye of the National Education. So indoctrination by teachers... unlikely.

Of course, there's a little vocal minority of integrists. Like in every very large group.


QUOTE I would like to point out that the islamist religion permits and encourages such behavior
It is well known that homosexuality is punished by death not only by sharia law, but also by the law of the state
also those who renounce islam are murdered
woman who are raped are punished by law; and they are lucky if they escape being murdered
men who rape are not punished
beating of woman is allowed... and not even frowned upon
and a lot of them are anti-Semitic: muslim schools teach children to call jews: pigs and monkeys;
etc
all these are are facts; they happen every day in the middle-east

It's fun how you jump from Europe to an anonymous country in the middle east (It's the law of the state. Which one ? Turkey maybe ? Why should we care, we speaking about the Muslim Scare here, not about reality).
It's almost as if all the muslims in the world were the same. Strange.
 

monsta666

-the bee's knees
Kouhai
I am at loss for words, really.

QUOTE (void_er @ Mar 29 2008, 10:48 AM)I do not think it is unfair... if most/all muslims tried to integrate it would not be a problem;
but they are not trying to integrate
and what about their children - even if they come from moderate parents, after they go to muslin schools(with teacher that are mostly extremists)... what will become of them?

There are millions of Indians and Pakistani people who live in England who are Muslims. Many of them are integrated and go to normal state schools, work in all types of jobs from doctor to shop keeper. Now tell me are these people not integrated? In fact some of them embrace the culture so much they have almost forgotten their roots. I can't make too much comments about the rest of Europe but I am pretty sure it is more or less the same.


QUOTE I would like to point out that the islamist religion permits and encourages such behavior
It is well known that homosexuality is punished by death not only by sharia law, but also by the law of the state
also those who renounce islam are murdered
woman who are raped are punished by law; and they are lucky if they escape being murdered
men who rape are not punished
beating of woman is allowed... and not even frowned upon
and a lot of them are anti-Semitic: muslim schools teach children to call jews: pigs and monkeys;
etc
all these are are facts; they happen every day in the middle-east

Even in the Saudi Arabia you would not see people being murdered by the state for renouncing Islam similarly they would not take too kindly to seeing women getting raped. Some mental people in the country might do it but the state will not endorse it. I mentioned Saudi Arabia as they have one of the strictest laws regarding Islam.

Regarding homosexuality, yes in Islam homosexual is seen as vice but let me remind you there is a difference between condoning something and being homophobic. For example I don't approve of some of my friends taking illicit drugs yet I am still their friends. Just because you disapprove of something doesn't lead to automatic hate and persecution. I know plenty of Muslims who are friends with gay people. They don't approve of their behaviour but still associate with them and are even friendly to them. In any case don't Christians also consider homosexuality a vice? Shall we also attack them for their backward thinking?

Most of the hate against Jewish people is because of the issue of Israel. They feel they have been cheated out of their land. To add clarity to this matter Muslims occupied Jerusalem for about 300 years before they were moved out shortly after world war II. Since then they have been at their wits end trying to reclaim the land and hence they show such hate. That said most Islamic people don't automatically hate Jewish people they just don't like what happened in Israel.


QUOTE he says it is inferior as it pertains to religion; he has no problem with skin color; or with ppl who are not blinded by religion

My I remind you that the term racism is not limited to skin colour. It is the belief that people are superior/inferior due to their race/culture. I suppose by that token Hitler wasn't a racist as he had no problem with skin colour...

*sigh* I guess what I said will simply fall on deaf ears...
 

Patrick5087

-san
Kouhai
honestly, if you are going to make fun of one religion you should make fun of them all, because in reality, there is no "best" religion, there is only a best for you.
 

void_er

-chan
Kouhai
well most of what I do not like is the religious schools ... I think they should be all banned in EU ... and the same should be pushed upon islamic countries

if most muslim people from EU are integrating ... more power to them ... they are my "good people" category

the problem is with those that do not integrate .... or worse, do not even try

another thing is that most muslim organizations have links with extremists ... and they lobby for them

and the thing that annoys me most is that when extremists do bad things ... the moderates are mostly silent ... why?

in US(and all the west) you can hear everyday 100 people criticizing Bush, or the government, or the army, or the church, or...; and from the middle-east you hear the same thing they criticize Bush and the US government and the US army and christians and the EU
... but of themselves, their own gov and leaders ... I hear nothing

and may I remind you that even if 1%(though i think it is much too optimistic) of all muslims are extremists it is still too high a number
there are 1.2-.15 billion muslims ... 1% means 12-15 million extremists...

--------------

monsta666 wrote:
QUOTE In any case don't Christians also consider homosexuality a vice? Shall we also attack them for their backward thinking?
tell me when you last heard of a western country that executed someone just for being gay
 

Dalriada

-dono
Sempai
QUOTE in US(and all the west) you can hear everyday 100 people criticizing Bush, or the government, or the army, or the church, or...; and from the middle-east you hear the same thing they criticize Bush and the US government and the US army and christians and the EU
... but of themselves, their own gov and leaders ... I hear nothing

Well, I don't hear criticisms of the Danish government. Mainly because he's not at the head of a superpower.
Three other reasons
-The freedom of press and free speech is less strong in middle-east countries (including in the countries allied with the USA). So what people think is more silent.
-The guys they boo are not necessarily the guys we would want they boo, so the western press don't speak about it (And the guys we support are not always the nice guys. Mohammad Mossadegh would explain it better than I could)
-Some of those countries are/were in war or in a strong unrest. Criticisms of the government are traditionnaly less strong in those times (including in the West. Just look at Bill O'Reilly or Ann coulter calling some people traitors, because the US were at war).


QUOTE and may I remind you that even if 1%(though i think it is much too optimistic) of all muslims are extremists it is still too high a number
there are 1.2-.15 billion muslims ... 1% means 12-15 million extremists...

You don't define extremists.
You're taking those figures from nowhere.
What could I say!
 

Colette

New Member
Kouhai
well I'm a muslim

and muslims will eventually love prophet Mohamed , prophet Mohamed isn't terrorist , the muslims aren't terrorist.

you'll know more about islam here:
english.islamway.com

read it before saying anything wrong to islam or muslims.
 
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