Denmark VS Islam
- Thread starter wceend
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QUOTE Do`nt mess with peoplè religion , but to react with violence and start threatning people is WAY too much
I totally agree with you wceend,,, maybe i'm not that related to my religion but after all i'm muslim... so ofcourse you will not the same way that i do,,, i would be a liar if i said that i don't wish the guy who draws this to die,,,, but also i'm against violence...like what happened in syria or lebanon and both of them is my hometown... maybe thats one of the reasons i'm gonna travel to canada this summer
maybe the muslims and arab now are weak but that doesn't give the others the right to make fun of them or their religion....
anyway thanks for your opinion and i totally agree with you
I totally agree with you wceend,,, maybe i'm not that related to my religion but after all i'm muslim... so ofcourse you will not the same way that i do,,, i would be a liar if i said that i don't wish the guy who draws this to die,,,, but also i'm against violence...like what happened in syria or lebanon and both of them is my hometown... maybe thats one of the reasons i'm gonna travel to canada this summer
maybe the muslims and arab now are weak but that doesn't give the others the right to make fun of them or their religion....
anyway thanks for your opinion and i totally agree with you
Hmm, so far this thread is civilized. But I just want to give one word of advice
You can have any opinion, but BE RESPECTFULL
Otherwise, I know someone who will close this thread so fast, it will make everyone's head spin!
QUOTE (gabrielle_filth @ Feb 10 2006, 03:25 PM) maybe the muslims and arab now are weak but that doesn't give the others the right to make fun of them or their religion.... First of all, I would not say arabs are weak. But there were some major events in history that made the arab people become only the shadow of what they once were. Let me explain. A few hundreds years ago, the arab culture was much more advance than the western one. There is a reason why every mathematician in the world as well as all of us here use arab numbers! (yes, 1234556789 are all arab numbers!). But they are still not weak and many places are starting to try to take back the lost time.
Second, I totally agree with you as far as making fun of religion is concerned. Religion is, by definition, something that is super natural. It is a belief, a faith. When making fun of a religion, you are only showing that you belive that you are the one and only person that can be rigth. Since a subject like this cannot have someone who is, behind any doubts, the rigth one, a disrespectfull person is only showing how narrow minded he is.
And as far as this particular event is concern, I think both sides reaction are simply demonstrating how much each side does not understand the other.
You can have any opinion, but BE RESPECTFULL
Otherwise, I know someone who will close this thread so fast, it will make everyone's head spin!
QUOTE (gabrielle_filth @ Feb 10 2006, 03:25 PM) maybe the muslims and arab now are weak but that doesn't give the others the right to make fun of them or their religion.... First of all, I would not say arabs are weak. But there were some major events in history that made the arab people become only the shadow of what they once were. Let me explain. A few hundreds years ago, the arab culture was much more advance than the western one. There is a reason why every mathematician in the world as well as all of us here use arab numbers! (yes, 1234556789 are all arab numbers!). But they are still not weak and many places are starting to try to take back the lost time.
Second, I totally agree with you as far as making fun of religion is concerned. Religion is, by definition, something that is super natural. It is a belief, a faith. When making fun of a religion, you are only showing that you belive that you are the one and only person that can be rigth. Since a subject like this cannot have someone who is, behind any doubts, the rigth one, a disrespectfull person is only showing how narrow minded he is.
And as far as this particular event is concern, I think both sides reaction are simply demonstrating how much each side does not understand the other.
QUOTE but that's freedom of speech
Freedom has its limits..... there is a line you should not cross in everything....and one of these things are religions..... we have to respect other ppls religion whatever it is.....
QUOTE I don't see people trying to kill Mel Gibson for making 'Passion of the Christ'
well,, as far as i remeber he was getting some warnings from jewish ppl to not make that movie..... but the guy is brave and he did it...
here we had before 2 years a syrian tv show talks about jewish and how they invaded palestine, and jewish wanted to stop that tv show anyway they can but they couldn't....
Freedom has its limits..... there is a line you should not cross in everything....and one of these things are religions..... we have to respect other ppls religion whatever it is.....
QUOTE I don't see people trying to kill Mel Gibson for making 'Passion of the Christ'
well,, as far as i remeber he was getting some warnings from jewish ppl to not make that movie..... but the guy is brave and he did it...
here we had before 2 years a syrian tv show talks about jewish and how they invaded palestine, and jewish wanted to stop that tv show anyway they can but they couldn't....
Making a movie on "how Jesus/Christ has suffered in the past" is different than "HEY LOOK!! HERE'S ISLAM'S PROPHER!! LOOK HOW FUNNY HE IS!!! ZOMG LOOK!! HE'S FUNNY-ER THAN MICHEAL JACKSON"
Having said that, I had no idea that Denmark had done such thing.
Side note: It was not Denmark's intention of creating such comic of the last Prophet aka the prophet of Islam. It was more like the "newspaper's" intention of doing such thing. So, I suppose that the title of this thread is not suitable for the discussion. Why? Because neither Muslems/Islam nor Denmark/Danishs are at war.
Having said that, I had no idea that Denmark had done such thing.
Side note: It was not Denmark's intention of creating such comic of the last Prophet aka the prophet of Islam. It was more like the "newspaper's" intention of doing such thing. So, I suppose that the title of this thread is not suitable for the discussion. Why? Because neither Muslems/Islam nor Denmark/Danishs are at war.
I think the two of you (mkk and gabrielle_filth) just illustrated my point! Both of your arguments are valid and none of you really understand how the other can have such a opinion.
Fredom of the press on one side.
Respect of religion on the other.
Two concepts that are very different, yet very similar.
The problem is that both sides don't really want to acknoledge that the other side does not want to insult the other. They simply think differently.
Most of the time, its not too much of a deal. But in this case, the event has taken HUGE proportion because some extremist group are using it to promote their idea (and I don't mean only islamist extremists).
There is always a reason behind every news. And most people have an agenda. Just ask yourself why did these picture suddenly came out now while they were originally published in SEPTEMBER!
Fredom of the press on one side.
Respect of religion on the other.
Two concepts that are very different, yet very similar.
The problem is that both sides don't really want to acknoledge that the other side does not want to insult the other. They simply think differently.
Most of the time, its not too much of a deal. But in this case, the event has taken HUGE proportion because some extremist group are using it to promote their idea (and I don't mean only islamist extremists).
There is always a reason behind every news. And most people have an agenda. Just ask yourself why did these picture suddenly came out now while they were originally published in SEPTEMBER!
QUOTE (Bold @ Feb 10 2006, 03:37 PM) I think the two of you (mkk and gabrielle_filth) just illustrated my point! Both of your arguments are valid and none of you really understand how the other can have such a opinion.
Fredom of the press on one side.
Respect of religion on the other.
Two concepts that are very different, yet very similar.
The problem is that both sides don't really want to acknoledge that the other side does not want to insult the other. They simply think differently.
Most of the time, its not too much of a deal. But in this case, the event has taken HUGE proportion because some extremist group are using it to promote their idea (and I don't mean only islamist extremists).
There is always a reason behind every news. And most people have an agenda. Just ask yourself why did these picture suddenly came out now while they were originally published in SEPTEMBER!
I believe what you ment to say is:
Freedom of the press is not an actual freedom if they corrupt or interfere with other people's freedom. Which is this very case. In that case, the freedom of speech or press are abusing other people's freedom. Then it is not called freedom of speech anymore.
Fredom of the press on one side.
Respect of religion on the other.
Two concepts that are very different, yet very similar.
The problem is that both sides don't really want to acknoledge that the other side does not want to insult the other. They simply think differently.
Most of the time, its not too much of a deal. But in this case, the event has taken HUGE proportion because some extremist group are using it to promote their idea (and I don't mean only islamist extremists).
There is always a reason behind every news. And most people have an agenda. Just ask yourself why did these picture suddenly came out now while they were originally published in SEPTEMBER!
I believe what you ment to say is:
Freedom of the press is not an actual freedom if they corrupt or interfere with other people's freedom. Which is this very case. In that case, the freedom of speech or press are abusing other people's freedom. Then it is not called freedom of speech anymore.
QUOTE (gabrielle_filth @ Feb 10 2006, 03:11 PM) Freedom has its limits.....
First of all, i'd just like to say that thats an idiot statment to make, freedom has no limits, if it did, it wouldnt be free.
[Edit- The freedom im discussing here is freedom of the press, i know there are limits on other freedoms.]
Second it might be wrong that the prophet was made fun of, but its freedom of speech, theres nothing you can do about it. And people are just over reacting.
P.S. This whole thing is really being blown up by the radicals who made up that rule against depicting Muhummad *mispelled*, so its just their idiotic constrictions that are to blame here.
If they're so rallied up about the newspaper, why dont they say something about the exhibit in England of 4th & 5th century middle eastern art some of which depict the prophet?
First of all, i'd just like to say that thats an idiot statment to make, freedom has no limits, if it did, it wouldnt be free.
[Edit- The freedom im discussing here is freedom of the press, i know there are limits on other freedoms.]
Second it might be wrong that the prophet was made fun of, but its freedom of speech, theres nothing you can do about it. And people are just over reacting.
P.S. This whole thing is really being blown up by the radicals who made up that rule against depicting Muhummad *mispelled*, so its just their idiotic constrictions that are to blame here.
If they're so rallied up about the newspaper, why dont they say something about the exhibit in England of 4th & 5th century middle eastern art some of which depict the prophet?
QUOTE (EXILE @ Feb 10 2006, 04:01 PM) First of all, i'd just like to say that thats an idiot statment to make, freedom has no limits, if it did, it wouldnt be free.
[Edit- The freedom im discussing here is freedom of the press, i know there are limits on other freedoms.]
Uh... Freedom HAS it's limits. As long as your freedom is not interfering with other people's freedom, it is UNDER it's limits.
[Edit- The freedom im discussing here is freedom of the press, i know there are limits on other freedoms.]
Uh... Freedom HAS it's limits. As long as your freedom is not interfering with other people's freedom, it is UNDER it's limits.
QUOTE freedom has no limits
oh, i'd just like to say that this is a stupid statment you just said..... well if freedom has no limits you wouldn't be even exist,,, freedom without limits means you can do anything you want,, so i can go there to where you live kill you and all your family and come back here like nothing happened... why do you think they make rules?
QUOTE Second it might be wrong that the prophet was made fun of, but its freedom of speech, theres nothing you can do about it
well maybe you never read about muslims and How they are related to their religion or the prophet... making fun of the prophet is making fun of islam, and making fun of islam is making fun of all muslims and arab (Since arab are almost all muslims).... there is nothing you can do about it??? thats such a stupid statment
oh, i'd just like to say that this is a stupid statment you just said..... well if freedom has no limits you wouldn't be even exist,,, freedom without limits means you can do anything you want,, so i can go there to where you live kill you and all your family and come back here like nothing happened... why do you think they make rules?
QUOTE Second it might be wrong that the prophet was made fun of, but its freedom of speech, theres nothing you can do about it
well maybe you never read about muslims and How they are related to their religion or the prophet... making fun of the prophet is making fun of islam, and making fun of islam is making fun of all muslims and arab (Since arab are almost all muslims).... there is nothing you can do about it??? thats such a stupid statment
the main thing you guys are mistaked about is that the newspaper did NOT make fun of the muslims. using mohammed in cartoons doesn't mean he or the muslim religion was being mocked!! it's important to realize that the intentions of whoever drew that was certainly making someone smile, without any respect to the muslim religion lost in the process.
you believe in something, your religion has rules: but you can't expect the rest of the world, those who don't believe the same thing that you do, to be binded by those rules. that is a selfish way of thinking. if i'm not a muslim, then it's alright for me to draw him. if you're not christian, it's alright for you to say that Mary wasn't a virgin and that it all was a made up story. We should respect a religion just as much as a religion should respect everyone else...
Let me see how my life would end up if i had to follow everyone else's beliefs: i'd have no pre marital sex (conservative thinkers), i'd eat no meat nor fish (vegetarians), i'd have no material possessions whatsoever (buddhism), i would believe in Noah's Arc and Adam and Eve... do you think that's the right way? Do you think that a religion has the right to limit you even if you don't believe in it?
If you're not tolerant, if you're not even slightly open minded, i'm sorry -- you have no place in today's world. would you guys allow something like a spanish inquisition to exist in modern times?
the bottom line: i'd understand if they were upset, but their actions are unacceptable.
/jp
EDIT: for those of you who know who Moses is and what he did at the red or the dead sea or whatever, here's a cartoon for you: http://www.funny-city.com/cartoons/images/78.jpg ... for you christian people: did you find that offensive?
you believe in something, your religion has rules: but you can't expect the rest of the world, those who don't believe the same thing that you do, to be binded by those rules. that is a selfish way of thinking. if i'm not a muslim, then it's alright for me to draw him. if you're not christian, it's alright for you to say that Mary wasn't a virgin and that it all was a made up story. We should respect a religion just as much as a religion should respect everyone else...
Let me see how my life would end up if i had to follow everyone else's beliefs: i'd have no pre marital sex (conservative thinkers), i'd eat no meat nor fish (vegetarians), i'd have no material possessions whatsoever (buddhism), i would believe in Noah's Arc and Adam and Eve... do you think that's the right way? Do you think that a religion has the right to limit you even if you don't believe in it?
If you're not tolerant, if you're not even slightly open minded, i'm sorry -- you have no place in today's world. would you guys allow something like a spanish inquisition to exist in modern times?
the bottom line: i'd understand if they were upset, but their actions are unacceptable.
/jp
EDIT: for those of you who know who Moses is and what he did at the red or the dead sea or whatever, here's a cartoon for you: http://www.funny-city.com/cartoons/images/78.jpg ... for you christian people: did you find that offensive?
well im a christain not a radical one but hey i thought that was funny darkdog. and my honest opinon on the thing is they are really over reacting . theres no need for all the violence and stuff thats going on cause of a cartoon. why cant people just relize it just a cartoon . yes it might be a little offensive to people but cmon ive seen some stuff on tv that make fun of christains and other groups. people just gotta learn to not take go over board over things like this. *runs and hides *
i can see tey get upset about this , bu to blame an entire country and their population for soemthing 1 (maybe local , unread) stupid nws paper publishes.
it was also on tv people were protesting against it in afghanistan , but at aDUTCH army base , waht do we have to do with it.
but i also think it`s good not to forbid those kind of things , if you do your making freedom of speech negotionable, and THAT is wrong.
the people that made that comic just lacks sense , you DON`T make fun of someone`s religion , even if it`s not against the law.
it was also on tv people were protesting against it in afghanistan , but at aDUTCH army base , waht do we have to do with it.
but i also think it`s good not to forbid those kind of things , if you do your making freedom of speech negotionable, and THAT is wrong.
the people that made that comic just lacks sense , you DON`T make fun of someone`s religion , even if it`s not against the law.
i don't think they lack sense.. comics are usually a way to do social criticism, and that is usually done pretty well. i believe that the media should be the most neutral element on our society, and that neutrality is accomplished by not giving in to a religion's or a country's pressure. a newspaper should talk about what they want, as long as the intention is not to mock or lie.
once a newspaper gives in to pressure, it can no longer be trusted, in my opinion. and with all the things happening in the world all the time, a trustworthy source of information is essencial..
BTW, did you guys see the comics that the newspaper published?
/jp
once a newspaper gives in to pressure, it can no longer be trusted, in my opinion. and with all the things happening in the world all the time, a trustworthy source of information is essencial..
BTW, did you guys see the comics that the newspaper published?
/jp
QUOTE (MKK2004 @ Feb 10 2006, 04:04 PM)Yeah the Denmark are making fun of the prophet, but that's freedom of speech.
There's one thing I hate about this freedom of speech argument: everyone is forgetting that it is a Western value. I don't know much about the region, but many countries in the world do not protect freedom of speech, and so they shouldn't just go "oh, okay" when a Westerner uses it as a defence.
Also, freedom of speech has its limits, as pointed out already. I believe if you infringe on another's freedoms, it can be restricted (in Canada anyway).
But really, apparently you're not suppose to draw this prophet at all and some guy in Denmark decided to make a cartoon implying he's a terrorist? I think reaction is justified (although maybe not all the violence, but remember, they live in a different 'world' than us. If you flipped the roles and an Arab implied God was a terrorist, do you not think some Christians would react the same way?)
Do they have political cartoons in the Arab nations? It's something I'm curious about, whether they understand the nature of a political cartoon (I've only ever seen them in Western papers). I'm not saying that would make it right, but it could give further justification for their reaction.
It's not right to blame an entire peoples for the actions of one paper. And I think it's stupid that there are (university) papers reprinting the cartoons when they know how much uproar they've created worldwide.
There's one thing I hate about this freedom of speech argument: everyone is forgetting that it is a Western value. I don't know much about the region, but many countries in the world do not protect freedom of speech, and so they shouldn't just go "oh, okay" when a Westerner uses it as a defence.
Also, freedom of speech has its limits, as pointed out already. I believe if you infringe on another's freedoms, it can be restricted (in Canada anyway).
But really, apparently you're not suppose to draw this prophet at all and some guy in Denmark decided to make a cartoon implying he's a terrorist? I think reaction is justified (although maybe not all the violence, but remember, they live in a different 'world' than us. If you flipped the roles and an Arab implied God was a terrorist, do you not think some Christians would react the same way?)
Do they have political cartoons in the Arab nations? It's something I'm curious about, whether they understand the nature of a political cartoon (I've only ever seen them in Western papers). I'm not saying that would make it right, but it could give further justification for their reaction.
It's not right to blame an entire peoples for the actions of one paper. And I think it's stupid that there are (university) papers reprinting the cartoons when they know how much uproar they've created worldwide.
QUOTE (chiisai_hana @ Feb 11 2006, 11:00 AM)Also, freedom of speech has its limits, as pointed out already. I believe if you infringe on another's freedoms, it can be restricted ot(in Canada anyway).The only limit to the fredom of press in Canada is that you can't publish an article that is diffamatory (hmm, not sure this is actually a word in english
) In other words, you can't implies something that is not true without any proofs.
For example, if someone is found not guilty of murder in a criminal trial, you can't publish an article saying he is a murdered, unless you have some extremly solid evidence to back your claim.
As far as I know, its the only canadian rule that limit what you can say or not in the media. For radio and TV, there is also the CRTC mandate, but that is not the same. It simply forces TV and radio stations to stick to the kind of programming they have been issued a lisenced for.
QUOTE Do they have political cartoons in the Arab nations? Yes they do. I saw a couple from time to time. Even right now, there is a contest in a newpaper (either syrian or libian, not sure which one) to make a comic on the holocost as a response to the Danish comics.
Someone now has the brilliant idea to drag into these events yet another religion. If this continues, maybe the budists will get involved in a few weeks!
For example, if someone is found not guilty of murder in a criminal trial, you can't publish an article saying he is a murdered, unless you have some extremly solid evidence to back your claim.
As far as I know, its the only canadian rule that limit what you can say or not in the media. For radio and TV, there is also the CRTC mandate, but that is not the same. It simply forces TV and radio stations to stick to the kind of programming they have been issued a lisenced for.
QUOTE Do they have political cartoons in the Arab nations? Yes they do. I saw a couple from time to time. Even right now, there is a contest in a newpaper (either syrian or libian, not sure which one) to make a comic on the holocost as a response to the Danish comics.
Someone now has the brilliant idea to drag into these events yet another religion. If this continues, maybe the budists will get involved in a few weeks!
not just university papers -- most portuguese papers did that as well, and i had absolutely no problem with that. i'm glad they did, because it means that press has ethics and instead of bailing out, they stood up and said "don't blame denmark, blame everyone". they have the right to defend themselves, right?
and, as far as i know, the problem wasn't specifically treating muhammad like he was a terrorist -- for the muslims, muhammad is "unpicturable", it's completely forbidden to try to make a representation of him. and that's the main issue.
i bet that most of the people burning embassies and flags and things like that never looked at the cartoons anyway.
/jp
and, as far as i know, the problem wasn't specifically treating muhammad like he was a terrorist -- for the muslims, muhammad is "unpicturable", it's completely forbidden to try to make a representation of him. and that's the main issue.
i bet that most of the people burning embassies and flags and things like that never looked at the cartoons anyway.
/jp
I know out East there was some conflict and protests because a Canadian university republished the cartoons, so that's why I'm against it. They know it's causing a problem, and they've got students in their own schools who are offended, so it just didn't seem very sensitive.
The media is getting too ... I don't know. They jump on anything and don't really help issues at times. Sometimes I wish they would think more about what they cover/publish.
The media is getting too ... I don't know. They jump on anything and don't really help issues at times. Sometimes I wish they would think more about what they cover/publish.
