Cloning


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monsta666

-the bee's knees
Staff member
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Today somebody successfully cloned their dead pet. Their pet dog died 2 years ago from cancer but by preserving the dog's skin cells scientists were able to successfully clone the dog. A scientific miracle:
Pet cloning service bears five baby Boogers.

This precedent also raises it's own ethical issues. Is it right to bring dead animals back to life? Should people accept death as a part of life? As technology advances people will face more difficult questions. Once cloning becomes advanced enough to clone humans the question will be raised. If I can clone my dead dog why can't I clone my dead child? So what do you think should people embrace this technology and use it to bring back loved ones or should we do away with cloning all together?
 
Well personally i think it's wrong to clone a pet animal or humans.
Cloning is in my oppinion against the rules of nature. The technology is awesome but wrong, i mean if your child or other family member or a friend dies you just clone them but that wouldn't be the same and furter more it would result a overcrowded earth and then there would be any placed left for people to life or too even move around.

I know it always hurts bad when you lose a loved one, but it just isn't right to clone them just to bring them back to live with cloning. As i already said is't against the laws of nature. (i wish i could explain my oppinion a little better
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i agree with chuuko.
this is a statement from a proffesor posted on a completely different site.

QUOTE (WordsOfAProffesorPoster) these are the exact words of yet another proffesor. this time about cloning: Cloners in the world should be stopped Immediately.  Cloning dead people or animals Is wrong. People must accept that death is a part of life, God's creation. I believe that he Is ashamed of everybody who clones. In every story goes something like this: you're born, you live, you get old, you die. It is a true fact of life that cloning should not be permitted Anywhere in the world. I completely disagree with whoever says that cloning anything is right. If you say it is right, please do not clone anything, Ask anyone to clone anything for you or tell anyone to clone anything Period. Cloning must be stopped. Nothing and Nobody has a right to clone anything. There should be a law against cloning. By Proffesor J.T.L.  i agree with the professor.don't you??
Words of Proffesor J.T.L posted by WordsOfAProffesorPoster

AGREE
 
To be honest i think everyone will swing one way for this just to be going with crowd.
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But ill be honest it would be uber cool to see a cloneing take place but then people would be trying to clone too many people and the world would end up in a disaster. So my theory on cloneing is stay away from it yes you can do it but do we need to?

I sadly lost my gran a few weeks back yesterday and if i got offered a clone of her right now i wouldnt take it although i loved her very much.
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The reason i wouldnt take it is because its going against natures will but the most important factor for me is its disrepectful to the dead. Thats just plain wrong in my opinion.
 
Is it really the same dog? Does it have identical habits, have a preference for the same people, same temperament? Well, this might be hard to question with a pet but it would definitely come up with human cloning. We're more than just our bodies, are we really the same person without our experiences and memories?

I don't really think it's a healthy practice. In fact, I say the person has major issues dealing with grief. Death is a part of life - people have dealt with it for centuries and while it hurts, we all have to cope with it. Cloning itself is rather selfish. Do we really have nothing better to spend our money on? There are a lot of animals and humans in the world who need our attention - instead of cloning a dead pet, adopt one from a shelter and give it a good life.
 
Okay, let's first define cloning; loning is the process of making an identical copy of something. In biology, it collectively refers to processes used to create copies of DNA fragments (molecular cloning), cells (cell cloning), or organisms. - wiki

q.e.d, cloning is simply the replication f an organism with identical DNA structure. Now, seeing as the vast majority of what makes someone themselves is learned and not a result of biological processes, it seems almost pointless to clone a dead person/pet if your goal is to have that person back. they are not back, you simply have something which is genetically their sibling.

so, is cloning wrong? not in of itself, it particular with most cloning research being conducted under the premise that we will be able to clone specific organs (without cloning the whole organism), to create organs needed for transplant patients. Besides this use, there is really no logical use of cloning. As anyone who's taken a sound biology course knows, diversification is the key to survival, and key to evolution. Something which cloning hinders. Not to mention that the selfish bastards that had their dog cloned could have adopted several dozen dogs for the same price.

conclusion: cloning is not wrong, but despite previously mentioned (though totally awesome, right up there with stem cell research imho) usage, has little real value in cloning a whole identical organism.
 
QUOTE (mamori @ Aug 06 2008, 05:24 PM) so, is cloning wrong? not in of itself, it particular with most cloning research being conducted under the premise that we will be able to clone specific organs (without cloning the whole organism), to create organs needed for transplant patients. Besides this use, there is really no logical use of cloning. As anyone who's taken a sound biology course knows, diversification is the key to survival, and key to evolution. Something which cloning hinders. Not to mention that the selfish bastards that had their dog cloned could have adopted several dozen dogs for the same price.

conclusion: cloning is not wrong, but despite previously mentioned (though totally awesome, right up there with stem cell research imho) usage, has little real value in cloning a whole identical organism.
I agree with that statement. There is nothing wrong with cloning since you can't clone memories and experience which basically are the substance in what we call our "soul". If you just have an identical body well it still takes as long for it to grow so either way it won't be the same.

As for medical research i think cloning and stamcell research are the way to the future of transplants in which the body will accept the organs 100% of the time and where we won't run out of blood for people in need.

And yeah the people that clone for fun just because they feel like it should reconsider adopting !!
 
QUOTE (mamori @ Aug 07 2008, 12:24 AM)so, is cloning wrong? not in of itself, it particular with most cloning research being conducted under the premise that we will be able to clone specific organs (without cloning the whole organism), to create organs needed for transplant patients.  Besides this use, there is really no logical use of cloning.  As anyone who's taken a sound biology course knows, diversification is the key to survival, and key to evolution.  Something which cloning hinders.  Not to mention that the selfish bastards that had their dog cloned could have adopted several dozen dogs for the same price.

conclusion: cloning is not wrong, but despite previously mentioned (though totally awesome, right up there with stem cell research imho) usage, has little real value in cloning a whole identical organism.     

I agree with your statement, but cloning is still wrong if scientist are going to clone whole humans because if someone dies you just clone that certain person again and i think that's disrespectfull for the death's.
Cloning is fine if they keep it at organs, because that can save life's and that's a good thing.

I've found an article about cloning a sheep.

For more than a decade, scientists have been using genetic technology to produce biologically identical copies, or clones, of animals. In theory, cloning can be used to improve sheep and cattle breeds by ensuring that the animals' most desirable genetic characteristics are passed on. But in practice, cloning has often proved disappointing: scientists have been limited in the number of clones they could produce, and the young animals frequently have a low survival rate. Now, scientists at the Roslin Institute near Edinburgh have demonstrated a dramatically different kind of cloning technology. Starting with cells from a sheep embryo, they grew thousands of copies in a culture. Technicians then fused the cells to unfertilized eggs and implanted the eggs in female sheep. In the end, only a handful of cloned Welsh Mountain lambs were born. But members of the Roslin team said that when the new technique is perfected, it should be possible to create thousands of identical sheep and cattle at a time. "This is very exciting," said Prof. Allan King, an embryologist and geneticist at Ontario's University of Guelph. "It has big implications for livestock breeding and production."  The experiment, described in the March 7 issue of the British scientific journal Nature, suggested that the new technology could be used someday to create cattle with leaner meat and cows that produce low-fat milk. Keith Campbell, the cell biologist in charge of the experiment, said that kind of genetic fine-tuning could become possible because, unlike existing methods, the new cloning system would enable scientists "to make much more precise genetic changes in the cells used to produce cloned animals."  The Roslin scientists scored an unexpected triumph when they achieved a type of cloning that had defeated past attempts by American and European scientists. The method differs from existing cloning technology in several important ways. In conventional sheep cloning, technicians usually remove embryos, consisting of between 50 and 60 cells, from artificially inseminated ewes, divide the cells into two clusters and re-insert these into recipient ewes.  The Roslin team started with slightly more mature embryonic cells, which were then grown in a culture where they multiplied rapidly - providing a far higher number of potential clones than usual. According to Campbell, the cells' high rate of growth may have been induced when scientists withdrew some of the nutrients in the culture. "This put the cells into a quiescent state," said Campbell, "which may have made them more suitable for controlling development into a fetus."  The use of a culture for growing cells should also make finer genetic tuning possible. In the past, scientists have tried to inject new genes into an embryo before cloning - an approach, said Roslin team member Ian Wilmut, that "is very primitive, like firing a shotgun." Using a culture, added Campbell, "we should be able to make much more precise genetic changes, and then use only the altered cells to produce new animals."  Inevitably, advances in animal cloning raise the prospect of scientists applying the same techniques to humans. Doctors at George Washington Medical Center in Washington did just that in 1993 when they produced 48 short-lived clones of human embryos. The controversial experiment, which was made public at a scientific conference held in Montreal, triggered a fierce controversy. Since then, some industrialized nations, including Canada, have issued guidelines against the cloning of human embryos. Meanwhile, the survival rate among cloned animals remains low. Of the five Roslin lambs born in Scotland last July, only two survived infancy and were still living last week as their story was told to the world.

So is cloning animals wrong?? i think it is, because like mamori already said, people should adopt animals such as dogs, cats and other animals rather than cloning them.

Here's an article about human cloning---.Human Cloning
 
I heard about the dead pet thing, and all i can say is this world is burning to the ground.

Ofcourse this is a slippery slope, the only reason it isnt already commercial is because it cant be mass produced. It cost that woman alot of money so only a few can afford if they were really desperate.The minute scientist refine the technique to the point where it can be done pratically, efficiently and cost effective it only takes one scientist to sell the rights and then cloning will be offered like they offer broadband services.

At first people will be shocked and appalled, then we will become desensitised to it all. Maybe we could even get perfectly engineered babies etc. Even if the government manages to overcome my pessimism and actually do the decent thing and stop cloning of humans (because we all know that is where it is leading) it will just drive the practise underground untill people say we might as well legalise it so we can register clones or some other crap.

So for me, im not even dissappointed, this was to be expected from a slowly decaying world in morals and values. I can only pray that before scientist are able to refine cloning, i am long dead and my loved ones had the decently to follow my will and cremate me then scatter me across the four corners of the world. Lets see them clone that.

Edit:
I just thought of d.grayman, if the earl of millenium offered you to replace a loved one i wonder how many of us would say yes.
 
QUOTE (chiisai_hana @ Aug 06 2008, 11:45 PM)Is it really the same dog? Does it have identical habits, have a preference for the same people, same temperament? Well, this might be hard to question with a pet but it would definitely come up with human cloning. We're more than just our bodies, are we really the same person without our experiences and memories?

QUOTE (mamori @ Aug 07 2008, 12:24 AM)q.e.d, cloning is simply the replication f an organism with identical DNA structure. Now, seeing as the vast majority of what makes someone themselves is learned and not a result of biological processes, it seems almost pointless to clone a dead person/pet if your goal is to have that person back. they are not back, you simply have something which is genetically their sibling.
I'm not saying a clone will be identical to the original in terms of personality but it will share a lot more traits than if you got a new dog. I believe genes play a strong part in determining our behaviour. If we look at twin studies, twins separated at birth often show remarkable similarities to their other twin in terms of personality. Similar adopted children often behave quite differently even if they grew up in the same environment suggesting that genetics plays a part in all this. From personal experience many close friends say I behave like mother while my sister is more like my father. That's not to say environment plays no role (it does) but to say all behaviour is determined by our environment/experiences may not be totally true.

I would agree this move was rather selfish. This women could have easily adopted a dog from a shelter. So the answer in this case is relatively obvious. The problem comes when the dead thing is a child. This is when things become less clear cut. Sure there is adoption but is it fair that all people go down this root? Why is IVF treatment so popular if people could opt for adoption? After all adoption is the cheaper option...

As a final point I don't think cloning technology was primarily done for the interests of evolution. Most of the cloning technologies centres around stem cell research which is more interested in curing degenerative diseases. That said it should be noted that the first cloned dogs came from the best sniffer dogs.
 
QUOTE (monsta666 @ Aug 07 2008, 09:50 AM) The problem comes when the dead thing is a child. This is when things become less clear cut. Sure there is adoption but is it fair that all people go down this root? Why is IVF treatment so popular if people could opt for adoption? After all adoption is the cheaper option...
It's not really any less clear cut to me. And what is "fair"? Okay, it's not "fair" you can't have your child, but it's also not "fair" to all those other children that they can't have parents. The thing is, people are selfish. It's really hard to adopt a baby and that's what people want usually. They don't want the ten year old raised in foster care, but a child who will be theirs.

And again, child death is another fact of life. Only a century ago, we still had really high infant mortality rates and people not living to adulthood was normal and accepted. Obviously, society has changed and we don't have as many children today in our families, however, that doesn't mean the trauma of child death is any less than it was before. Our society just doesn't know how to cope with grief anymore. in my opinion.
 
Let's put aside all the technical stuff and whether you consider it right or wrong for a second. I'll just pose a basic scenario real quick. What if you had just married the person of your dreams and they fell off a cliff or something tragic like that during your honeymoon. You had planned to spend the rest of your life with this person and in a split second it was all gone.

Then the very next day you were offered a chance to clone him / her. Knowing they would not be the exact same but their appearance would be identical, in that state of emotional distress, would you not consider cloning? They still look and feel the same, wouldn't that immediate temptation be enough for you to go ahead and have it done? I think the majority of people would say no but I wonder if you were actually put in that situation if your answer would change? Although I'm anti-cloning in general, I would probably in fact, have her cloned under that circumstance. Under the reasoning that my human nature is to have what I care about the most even if it's a flawed version.
 
QUOTE (senpai-kun @ Aug 07 2008, 12:56 PM) Let's put aside all the technical stuff and whether you consider it right or wrong for a second. I'll just pose a basic scenario real quick. What if you had just married the person of your dreams and they fell off a cliff or something tragic like that during your honeymoon. You had planned to spend the rest of your life with this person and in a split second it was all gone.

Then the very next day you were offered a chance to clone him / her. Knowing they would not be the exact same but their appearance would be identical, in that state of emotional distress, would you not consider cloning? They still look and feel the same, wouldn't that immediate temptation be enough for you to go ahead and have it done? I think the majority of people would say no but I wonder if you were actually put in that situation if your answer would change? Although I'm anti-cloning in general, I would probably in fact, have her cloned under that circumstance. Under the reasoning that my human nature is to have what I care about the most even if it's a flawed version.
so who's going to give birth to your cloned wife? who's going to raise her? will she become your daughter? your scenerio just doesn't make sense to me
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QUOTE (mamori @ Aug 07 2008, 04:37 PM)so who's going to give birth to your cloned wife? who's going to raise her? will she become your daughter?  your scenerio just doesn't make sense to me 
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The first sentence of my post "Put all of the technical stuff aside." It's not a very difficult scenario to grasp really. It was basically just an example, the question was simply put would you clone the person right after such a traumatic event occured?

- A loved one dies

- Your distressed

- You're are immediately given a choice to clone him/her

- You make a choice. YES/NO

Point being that not everyone is just going to follow facts and figures saying that cloning is wrong so we shouldn't do it. Logic does not always apply to a person that is grieving or just experienced a traumatic event. After I read the majority of the posts in this thread I noticed that many would Therapeutic Clone (for the use of medicine /research) but not many would Reproductive Clone (human). I just wanted to make a point that in certain circumstances you can give all the logical reasoning in the world why not to do something but somewhere somebody will do it anyway. Why? possibly because you lost something you desperately want back. You're not getting an exact copy of the person you lost in return. Okay, though you want just a fragment of that person back. An altered state of mind, a grieving and desperate one, can have you make a decision you would not under normal circumstances make.

What if I wanted to raise them in the memory of my deceased loved one as a tribute of sorts? Would that be considered an acceptable scenario?
 
I think that cloning is a double-edged sword. I think it could be useful for things such as cloning new organs for transplant (or cloning animals for increased yields of meat
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But things fall apart when your trying to use it to replace someone. A clone does not bring someone back to life! a clone will allways be different to the original - even if it acts and looks exactly like its source they are still different beings!

I agree with senpai-kun that people in grief will probably try to clone a lost lover (or child or pet) but if you consider this a replacement for the original then you have just deluded yourself and should probably consider your mental state.

I'm not totally against cloning people or pets I'm just against trying to replace them with an imitation - for example if you lost a baby during child birth I wouldn't be opposed to cloning another one as long as you didn't use the clone to try and replace the first one (in this case the reason for cloning would be that its quicker and easier than trying to get pregnant and then suffering another 9 months of pregnancy). Also same with pets if your dog dies then you may want another dog of a similar breed and genes proven to be without fault in both personality and health.
 
or you could, you know, plant a tree. as has been mentioned, people who (would) use cloning to bring back someone (in their minds), or as a "tribute" are only running away from the fact that their loved one is dead, dead and gone forever. That, and not relising that doing such a thing is horendously selfish act on their part.

It's easy to make an argument prefaced with "putting all logic aside."
 
QUOTE (Bulletspawn @ Aug 07 2008, 06:56 PM) I agree with senpai-kun that people in grief will probably try to clone a lost lover (or child or pet) but if you consider this a replacement for the original then you have just deluded yourself and should probably consider your mental state.


I was just trying to put myself "In the shoes" of the person who would actually consider cloning another human. Doesn't it make sense to try and understand the other side of the argument? To ask if human emotions can play a greater factor in some cases than someone giving you a sheet of paper w/facts stating why it's selfish to clone?



QUOTE (mamori @ Aug 07 2008, 07:02 PM)or you could, you know, plant a tree.  as has been mentioned, people who (would) use cloning to bring back someone (in their minds), or as a "tribute" are only running away from the fact that their loved one is dead, dead and gone forever.  That, and not relising that doing such a thing is horendously selfish act on their part. 

It's easy to make an argument prefaced with "putting all logic aside."


You could plant a tree. Will that have the same impact as having a living breathing human being replacement? Can you hug that tree, kiss that tree, hold conversations and have back and forth interaction with that tree? How can you regain what was lost if they can't function in the same manner? Isn't it possible that they aren't running away from the fact that their loved one is dead but in actuality they comprehend that better than anyone else. That is the reason they make the decision to do something (by many considered drastic) to fill the void that was left.

That's true it's easy to make an argument prefaced with "putting all logic aside." Though sometimes you have to "Put all of the technical stuff aside," in order to find answers to questions that don't fit your idea of logical thinking.
 
QUOTE (senpai-kun @ Aug 07 2008, 08:51 PM) I was just trying to put myself "In the shoes" of the person who would actually consider cloning another human. Doesn't it make sense to try and understand the other side of the argument? To ask if human emotions can play a greater factor in some cases than someone giving you a sheet of paper w/facts stating why it's selfish to clone?
The thing is, everyone has been in those shoes. We all know what it feels like to lose someone (or, if you don't yet you will). So I don't think we're stating opinions based on 'a sheet of paper with facts', but in this case, we all have personal experiences which we can draw from.

But to move on, if you clone, does it replicate diseases the person has as well? Like, if your father died of old age and had Alzheimer's - if you cloned him, would he eventually get Alzheimer's again? (Assuming straight cloning here, and no modifications from other procedures).
 
QUOTE (chiisai_hana @ Aug 07 2008, 09:21 PM)The thing is, everyone has been in those shoes. We all know what it feels like to lose someone (or, if you don't yet you will). So I don't think we're stating opinions based on 'a sheet of paper with facts', but in this case, we all have personal experiences which we can draw from.

Really
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everyone has been in a situation where they have an option to clone someone after (the original question posed) they lose an important person to them. These must be benefits to select people that have not ever been offered to me. As far as the opinions based off of facts what else would you call them? They entail scientific points stating you will produce an identical body w/the memories and experiences lacking. All that has been processed and accepted as fact. I never argued against that point. I also agree that facts or information is important but when do humans always follow the most logical option?

It was my contention (the reason for the example) that it can't be just easily written off as well "You won't be getting exactly what you lost so there is no point." Once you clear the those facts some people will inevitably still choose human cloning if given an option. All I did was try to convey that there is indeed a point by asking the question why is that? Because they want back a piece of what they have lost and can achieve that through the process of cloning. Whether that be a point that passes one's ethical stamp of approval or not who is to judge.
 
QUOTE (senpai-kun @ Aug 07 2008, 11:38 PM) It was my contention (the reason for the example) that it can't be just easily written off as well "You won't be getting exactly what you lost so there is no point." Once you clear the those facts some people will inevitably still choose human cloning if given an option. All I did was try to convey that there is indeed a point by asking the question why is that? Because they want back a piece of what they have lost and can achieve that through the process of cloning. Whether that be a point that passes one's ethical stamp of approval or not who is to judge.
Indeed that would be a true statement because if we all face the fact deep down most humans would choose the easy way out even tough the person that is cloned might not retain the same personality or traits they would look the same and we would perceive the clone as real since it's easy to adapt to something new. What I mean with that is of course that even if their personality was different we would accept it as the same person because we have the ability to accept anything and adapt to it.

Whether that may be moral or not is up to each and one, I think from an ethical point of view it's probably considered wrong and all the god loving people out there might scream out their anger about abusing gods creatures and such but would it be a bad idea? I think so because in the end dieing and accepting death is a part of life we shouldn't just remove an aspect of life just because we have the technology to do so at least that's what I think but as Senpai said when faced with a horrible situation humans tend to seek for the easiest escape route and the one that might hurt the least. Rash actions usually bite you in the behind later in life
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