Best and Worst of 2010/2011 (Discussion Thread)


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QUOTE (Barbobot @ Dec 20 2010, 07:10 PM) Not necessarily anything wrong with that. Actually kinda helpful cause if its a show I know Shinobu really doesn't like or stays away from, then it's a show that I might want to give a shot.


careful. i might just reverse psychology that back on you. I list an anime that i say i don't like and you go watch it just to find out that i actually like it. and vise versa.
 
QUOTE (Shinobu's_Lover @ Dec 22 2010, 10:26 AM) careful. i might just reverse psychology that back on you. I list an anime that i say i don't like and you go watch it just to find out that i actually like it. and vise versa.
In other words, you're doing this intentionally. I guess from my point I don't really see the purpose seeing that I watch essentially everything that comes out so it's not my problem at least
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Also, I think one show that most people forgot was Cross Game. 50 episode series that began airing in March 2009. Although sports, it was the best I've seen since Touch!, which aired in the 1980s and by the same author. Much more dramatic than touch and definitely not your typical sports show like Major or Eyeshield 21.

Another show would be Kemono no Souja Erin, which ended last December. A beautiful coming of age show that I believe is written by the same person who did Seirei no Moribito.

It's really interesting to see how the 50 episode shows this year were the most promising rather than the typical 12, 13, 24-26 episode series, which you would think would have less fillers and thus a more concise story. To see these 50 episode series to not only have no fillers in them is certainly quite the surprise.
 
QUOTE (Kit-Tsukasa @ Dec 22 2010, 09:25 PM)Also, I think one show that most people forgot was Cross Game. 50 episode series that began airing in March 2009. Although sports, it was the best I've seen since Touch!, which aired in the 1980s and by the same author. Much more dramatic than touch and definitely not your typical sports show like Major or Eyeshield 21.

I didn't forget that
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though I kinda might have forgotten to put it into best show category.. fail me
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Still its definitely the best plot one for me
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QUOTE (Kit-Tsukasa @ Dec 22 2010, 09:25 PM)
It's really interesting to see how the 50 episode shows this year were the most promising rather than the typical 12, 13, 24-26 episode series, which you would think would have less fillers and thus a more concise story. To see these 50 episode series to not only have no fillers in them is certainly quite the surprise.
In fact, I noticed that ~50 episode shows are usually the most enjoyable to me, maybe its because they have enough time for both plot development, and character development. For example my top anime of all time - Juuni Kokki (The Twelve Kingdoms)
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Meh, I'll have to agree with Killer Ossi, i'm saddened as well about the prefinal vote results. But then again, many voters probably only chose from main stream shows, and we cant due anything about that :|

Well... at least people know which shows were bad and got their votes right there.
 
QUOTE (Nioki @ Dec 27 2010, 11:08 AM) Meh, I'll have to agree with Killer Ossi, i'm saddened as well about the prefinal vote results. But then again, many voters probably only chose from main stream shows, and we cant due anything about that :|
I think the issue is people here don't watch enough shows. Hopefully this will be remedied for next year's poll as there will be 4 preliminary polls taking place every few months. This will hopefully result in people remembering what they watched
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QUOTE Well... at least people know which shows were bad and got their votes right there.
I don't know about that. Needless was actually pretty decent since it was stupid funny and Ookami-san wasn't bad. It just felt incomplete. B Gata H Kei wasn't terrible either. I simply don't see how people did not realize that it was a fanservice show to begin with and that nothing was going to happen in the end.
I'm more surprised to not see the likes of Chu-Bra, Seikon no Qwaser, and 11eyes on that list.
 
Cant say anything about Chu-Bra since I didnt watch it but Qwaser and 11eyes were pretty good in my eyes. Im surprised season 2 of Nogizaka wasnt in the final list. It even made it in the the best list of one person, even though the whole season was nothing but more than a big fail.

The problem with the votes are proabably that the "big"-users didnt participate. Except for shinobus, wedora, grdel, Kit, njlandp and me only nobodys voted. Thats not even half of the bigshots.
 
Excuse me for being a "nobody." Usually I just lurk. However, I do watch at least the first episode of every show, every season, before deciding what to watch, which is usually more than a dozen shows.

Yes, what got selected for the finals was basically least common denominator stuff. That's what was bound to happen the way the contest was set up (no, I'm not blaming the organizers here, thank you for organizing this for us). When you have too many shows to choose from in the initial round (the whole year!) the things that are going to get the most votes are necessarily going to be shows that are palatable to the largest number of people, or shows with a small but rabid fanbase.

A big part of the reason for that is that the original nominations are not weighted. All 5 things a person chooses for each category get 1 point. That means whatever gets mentioned by the most people will get into the finals. That seems good, right? You want whatever gets mentioned the most to get in. This results in series that the largest number of people consider "pretty good" getting in. But if you want what we consider best to get in, you'd want to have people rank their original choices, then weight those ranks (only slightly would probably enough, like 2/1.75/1.5/1.25/1). Another way of removing error would be each person nominating less shows.

Overall Nominations in the Finals (excluding worst show, which doesn't suffer from this problem):

Angel Beats! 7
Bakemonogatari 6
To Aru Kagaku no Railgun 5
Kimi ni Todoke 3
Highschool of the Dead 3
Durarara!! 3
K-ON!! 2
Arakawa Under The Bridge 1
Seitokai no Ichizon 1

Don't get me wrong here, I watched Angel Beats!, Bakemonogatari and Railgun, and I thought they were all pretty good. Indeed, I'm a huge Nisio Isin fanboy. But would I have put those three as my top picks for the year? No. I doubt actually that most of us would, as many people have pointed out.

The problem is not "people didn't watch enough shows." The problem is not "the 'big' users didn't vote enough." The reason things turned out the way they did is because the way the contest was designed does not work well with a huge field of choices, like an entire year of shows. Given a huge field of choices, that method of voting will always turn out "compromise" lists of mainstream finals candidates that most people thought were good but few people really loved.

The last big problem, and one that is not the organizer's fault, is incomplete votes. If you don't pick 5 shows in each category, it actually skews the nomination. So when you have users *cough daedelron*cough* who literally voted ONLY for Angel Beats for everything except best OP and worst show, it messes with the system. You need to discard incomplete category selections for the system to work.

Here's an example. I have an imaginary world with 5 voters who voted for 5 different shows for best show. In my imaginary world, they voted like this:

Voter 1: Show A, Show B, Show C, Show D
Voter 2: A C D E
Voter 3: A B D F
Voter 4: B F G H
Voter 5: B C F H

A: 2 B: 3 C: 2 D: 2 E: 1 F: 3 G: 1 H: 2

So we have a tie between B and F, with a four way tie for second. (The ties are because I used only 5 voters).

Now, lets say 2 of the voters (4 and 5) only voted for Show B, and didn't finish filling out their ballots. The other votes vote the same way.

A: 2 B: 3 C: 1 D: 2 E: 1 F: 1 G: 0 H: 0

As you can see, in a vote of this kind, by not completely filling out the ballot, a voter skews the vote in favor of their sole pick, by not picking any other shows, and also thereby disfavors their second, third, fourth, and fifth choices.

As to worst show:

This category has a different problem. People generally won't even watch things they already know are going to be terrible. So this seems like it ended up being mostly a "biggest dissapointment" category.

Ookami was a tolerably okay show. Not interesting enough for me to keep watching, but not the bottom of the barrel. It did however have the dubious honor of looking like it could be a good show, then not turning out to be all that great.

Having actually watched all the way through Da Bund and Kampfer, I can say with confidence that Chu-Bra! and Shukufuku no Campanella (coming in at a BLAZING 5.41/10 on Anidb) were worse by far. But most people probably didn't even watch the first episode of those shows, because they looked so bad to begin with.

As far as B Gata H Kei goes, I thought it was boring and failed as a comedy. It even failed as fanservice, as far as I'm concerned. I could only even stand to watch the first four eps. It could have gotten better after that for all I know, but the first four eps I found truly dull.

Either way, having a "worst show" category isn't really going to produce satisfactory results unless people actually watch a lot of shows they don't like. This isn't something that's really a good candidate to be judged by this kind of poll.
 
QUOTE (Warsprite @ Jan 01 2011, 02:58 AM)Excuse me for being a "nobody." Usually I just lurk. However, I do watch at least the first episode of every show, every season, before deciding what to watch, which is usually more than a dozen shows.


Speak up more, don't just lurk around, its creepy, plus you look like a person with a number of interesting opinions about diff stuff.


QUOTE (Warsprite @ Jan 01 2011, 02:58 AM)The last big problem, and one that is not the organizer's fault, is incomplete votes. If you don't pick 5 shows in each category, it actually skews the nomination. So when you have users *cough daedelron*cough* who literally voted ONLY for Angel Beats for everything except best OP and worst show, it messes with the system. You need to discard incomplete category selections for the system to work.

Here's an example. I have an imaginary world with 5 voters who voted for 5 different shows for best show. In my imaginary world, they voted like this:

Voter 1: Show A, Show B, Show C, Show D
Voter 2: A C D E
Voter 3: A B D F
Voter 4: B F G H
Voter 5: B C F H

A: 2 B: 3 C: 2 D: 2 E: 1 F: 3 G: 1 H: 2

So we have a tie between B and F, with a four way tie for second. (The ties are because I used only 5 voters).

Now, lets say 2 of the voters (4 and 5) only voted for Show B, and didn't finish filling out their ballots. The other votes vote the same way.

A: 2 B: 3 C: 1 D: 2 E: 1 F: 1 G: 0 H: 0

As you can see, in a vote of this kind, by not completely filling out the ballot, a voter skews the vote in favor of their sole pick, by not picking any other shows, and also thereby disfavors their second, third, fourth, and fifth choices.

I really agree about this part. The system should be revised to take this into account.. Why didnt i think of this
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@Kit: NP, thank you and the rest of the FTV team for all your hard work here on the site.
@Nioki: Hah. Be careful what you wish for
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Argh Kit Im disappointed at you for voting Angel Beats before Railgun.
I really cant understand how such a big fail as Angel Beats could even get in the finals for Best Show and Best Plot unless its the only anime you ever watched in your life.

Yeah a most underrated would be good, but for that you have to know what is underrated and what not ^^
 
QUOTE (Killer_Ossi @ Jan 09 2011, 04:40 AM) Argh Kit Im disappointed at you for voting Angel Beats before Railgun.
I really cant understand how such a big fail as Angel Beats could even get in the finals for Best Show and Best Plot unless its the only anime you ever watched in your life.

Yeah a most underrated would be good, but for that you have to know what is underrated and what not ^^
I was actually debating between Railgun and Angel Beats! Both did the exact same thing but I felt Angel Beats! spent less time on filler material than Railgun did. Angel Beats! had a finale that really hit a soft spot of mine whereas Railgun was like a rehash of episode 12 a bit, if not extended. The problem for Railgun for me was that it dragged its feet a bit but when it really got going, action went through the roof. Over the other two choices were easy for me. Kimi ni Todoke ended on a sour note for me even though we now know there is a sequel, but alone the ending of the series was not the best way to end a shoujo/romance title. Bakemonogatari, even watched all in one sitting really lost its touch with Mayoi's and Tsuruga's arc for me despite how good Hitagi's, Nadeko's, and Tsubasa's arc were. Though Tsubasa's arc was also really only decent at best.

Anyways, on another note:

Suggestions for Improvement:

Read to completion if you plan on making a suggestion.

Like every year, not everyone is happy about the results. Some are also "upset" about how the current voting system is ran.

As mentioned various times now I plan on revising the voting system quite a bit this year. In fact, this will go into effect immediately as the next poll will take place at the end of this month if not early February. The reason for this is to help make the oldest of the year more memorable and have a fairer playing field when it comes to the final poll in December. As result, there will be 4 new polls in addition to the final one. These 4 new polls will take place about a month after the end of each anime season.

From each of these 4 polls, the top 2 from each category will advance to the final poll in December, which will thus result in a greater number of choices in the final poll.

While I plan on keeping an overall similar system, I would like some feedback on how you would like to see the system changed.

Here is the plan thus far:

New features:
  • There will be an OVA and movie category. For movies we will follow the first DVD/BD release date available if not the first sub available. This will vary on a case by case basis.

  • There will be a Best Seiyuu category. This is essentially equivalent to best character but to prevent the insane amount of ties that could ensue, hence narrowed to seiyuus. Seiyuus that already qualify for the December poll will not allowed to be voted for again in any other poll for the remainder of the year.

  • Changed Best OP Theme and Best ED theme to Best OP sequence and Best ED sequence. This will apply to a show's animation video during the OP and ED themes in addition to the music. Let me know if you guys want the music and video sequence separated.

  • To prevent the biased results, users must now vote a distinct number of shows in order for their vote to fully qualify (i.e. no voting OreImo in every category and the only show). This only applies to the 4 polls throughout the year. I will decide based on the final results in December as to whether or not that will also apply there.

  • Most Underrated is also a new category. This will allow less mainstream shows to get a chance to shine. The shows that are eligible for this will be limited to a select few each season. I will determine what is eligible or not. If you think a show is eligible and I didn't list it, bring it up to me and I will make a decision.


Removed Features:
  • No more Worst Show since there is a lack of popularity in this category

  • Most Original category has also been removed since it overlaps too much with Best Plot.



All in all this raises the total number of categories to 10. I could probably add a ton of other categories but only unless the users are willing to vote in more categories and maintain the same pace. The same goes for you, the users, suggesting newer categories.

All plans will be finalized by January 26. As for when the actual voting will take place, I have no specific date as of yet.
 
First of all could every one who voted for Angel Beats in Best Show and Best Plot please burn alive? Thanks.
I mean, sure until the last two eps Angel Beats was good but the ending and the lousy special ep totally killed the anime. Ok not the entire ending, the thing about that guy and that silverhaired girl was really nice but what came before was totally bs. Overall you could say Angel Beats used too much time on useless stuff.
And the only reason Angel Beats wasnt spending more time on fillers than Railgun is because it was shorter (@Kit), but I would rather say even through beeing shorter it spent more time on fillers than Railgun. And the Railgun fillers where greater too.

Overall:

Best OP Theme: "only my railgun" by fripSide (To Aru Kagaku no Railgun OP1)
Yeah good vote.

Best ED Theme: "NO, Thank You!" by Houkago Tea Time (K-ON!! ED2)
I just couldnt be another song. One of the best Animesongs ever.

Best Animation: Angel Beats!
Animation wise not great but an ok vote.

Most Enjoyable: To Aru Kagaku no Railgun
Good vote.

Best Plot: Angel Beats!
The biggest laugh I had today. Thanks guys.

Most Original: Arakawa Under the Bridge
Good vote.

Worst Show: Queen's Blade 2 (Queen's Blade Gyokuza wo Tsugu Mono)
Except for B Gata H Kei everything above was far more worse. And except the end Queen's Blade 2 was good.

Best Show: Angel Beats!
Wait. Im correcting myself. That was the best laugh today, maybe even the whole week.
Like I said totally not understandable since it was a fail even more fail than Queens Blade 2 what was voted Worst. I know that is just my opinion, but you know, I would like to say I want to help you realize your mistakes, but I lost my faith in humanity to be able to do that so I wont do it. Im only commenting on it a last time, except someone replys to this of course
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Suggestions:
- OVA/movie: Good idea, but it should really be made when the buyable version came out so that everyone had the chance to watch it.
- Best Seiyuu: No problem adding it even though I wont vote there since Im not really interested in Seiyuus (yes hate me!)
- OP/ED: I only can talk about me but I only judge OPs/EDs based on the music.
- To prevent the biased results ...: Yeah good change.
- Most underrated: Could be that there arent many votes. But since you are doing it Kit I at least know that the votable animes are really underrated and that not only in your eyes ^^

Since the votes are coming every 3 months now I think the category "Best character" could be implemented now since there arent that many characters to vote now.
And still I think you could add "Biggest surprise" because there are always a lot of shows beeing suprisingly bad or good.
 
QUOTE (Killer_Ossi @ Jan 11 2011, 12:59 PM) Since the votes are coming every 3 months now I think the category "Best character" could be implemented now since there arent that many characters to vote now.
And still I think you could add "Biggest surprise" because there are always a lot of shows beeing suprisingly bad or good.
As I said, best character is essentially lumped with Best Seiyuu.

I don't want people listing stuff like Mio Isurugi from MM! and Kirino Kousaka from OreImo as their best character since for those who don't know, they're voiced by the same person: Ayana Taketatsu. Same with Rie Kugimiya voicing Happy from Fairy Tail and Alphonse from Fullmetal Alchemist. The list goes on. I mean you can list the character if you don't know seiyuus and I'll just count whatever corresponding seiyuu that is.

Biggest Surprise, even though there may be an overlap with the underrated category, the latter is limited so I suppose it can be added.
 
Oh after reading Best Seiyuu I stopped reading taht part, my fault ^^

But Best character and Best Seiyuu are totally different things why do you tie them together? I mean just because a character is great doesnt mean the Seiyuu is great or other way round.
And there arent that many characters who could possibly be "best". Ok this voting showed that it is possible to vote for everything regardless how lousy it is so forget that argument.
And for having many ties you could do it as warsprite said and count the ranks different. For example Rank 1 is 5, 2 is 4 and so on.
There shouldnt be be a lot of ties this way. Sure it will make your work a lot more but Im pretty sure you could find someone to help you, me for example.
 
Overall a solid improvement. More polls will help a lot, assuming enough people vote, which appeared to be a problem in the prelims.

Thank you regarding the OP/ED change. Very wise choice. I had actually assumed that it was by both animation and music before voting. Now that I understand that interpretation was wrong (but will be correct in the future), people's voting patterns for OP/ED make more sense now.

Best Seiyuu

I have a feeling best seiyuu will be a bit troublesome for a category, since I don't imagine most people really keep track of that. Especially for newer fans this will be difficult.

While I see the problems with "best character," I disagree that "best seiyuu" is "essentially equivalent" to best character. A lot of things that go into a character that have nothing to do with the seiyuu, character design for example. Then there's the writing and plot behind the character that drive its development. While that gives the seiyuu something to work with, they're ultimately voicing a character created by someone else. A good example is Ogata Rina from White Album. Absolutely fantastic voice work by Mizuki Nana. Her brilliant voice acting really made Rina shine, but I would never vote for Ogata Rina for best character.

I have some doubts, however, that people will do a good job differentiating characters from their voice acting. But we'll see. Maybe I'm just being pessimistic. It's also not clear from the title category that it's just one seiyuu, rather than all of the seiyuu in the show. A little bit of text could probably resolve that ambiguity, at least.

Another problem is that some seiyuu can be great as one character, and be awful as another. http://boards.fansub.tv/?showtopic=10137 Dragon crisis is a good example of this. Kugimiya Rie, as you mentioned, is well known and generally acknowledged as a skilled voice actor. She did a great job as Alphonse, Aisaka Taiga, Gintama's Kagura among others...but as Rose in Dragon Crisis, she's just annoying. Not particularly fantastic as Hysterica in Dance in the Vampire Bund, either. Given that Seiyuu often take on multiple roles in a given season, some of which could be good, and others mediocre or downright poor, this is quite a problem.

Category Overlap

You mentioned overlap between most original and best plot. I think "Most Original" could have been salvaged by changing it to something like "Most Original Setting" or "Most Original Characters" to make the difference between the category and "Best Plot" more clear.

Actually I think one of the more major sources of category confusion was between "Most Enjoyable" and "Best Show".

While there is a difference (I might not personally enjoy Giant Killing, for example, but I have to concede that it is very well done) the two categories are very similar, and may require some additional instructions to differentiate:

In the preliminary round, there were 70 overlapping votes out of 134 total nominations for both categories. By overlapping votes I mean votes where the same person chose the same series in both categories. In other words, on average more than half of the time, if a person chose a series for "most enjoyable", they also chose it for "best show." more than a third of voters had 100% overlap(6/17 voters) between best show and most enjoyable. (Including people who omitted some from one of the categories, but did not choose to vote for additional, different shows.)

If "most enjoyable" is really supposed to be a "guilty pleasure" category, for series that people don't genuinely think are high quality, but still enjoy, why not just make it that?
 
QUOTE (Warsprite @ Jan 11 2011, 02:57 PM) Best Seiyuu

I have a feeling best seiyuu will be a bit troublesome for a category, since I don't imagine most people really keep track of that. Especially for newer fans this will be difficult.

While I see the problems with "best character," I disagree that "best seiyuu" is "essentially equivalent" to best character. A lot of things that go into a character that have nothing to do with the seiyuu, character design for example. Then there's the writing and plot behind the character that drive its development. While that gives the seiyuu something to work with, they're ultimately voicing a character created by someone else. A good example is Ogata Rina from White Album. Absolutely fantastic voice work by Mizuki Nana. Her brilliant voice acting really made Rina shine, but I would never vote for Ogata Rina for best character.
I agree with this 100%. Even though I've been watching quite a while, I still don't know seiyuu's by name or particularly care whose doing the voice. Its a common thing you'll see with movie actors as well: some people will watch a movie just because it has their favorite actor in it, some people don't know the actor's name even after seeing them in 6 different movies (me). It takes away from what my goal is, to get immersed and lost in the story, to focus on actors and actresses.

I will say, I did not vote in previous years because of the immense difficulty of filling out some of the options. The previous year's polls require you to have watched a significant number of anime that year, require you to go find seiyuu names for characters, and require you to find song names. Its a lot of work and puts people off voting. I think if you were only allowed a single vote for each category and stay away from categories that require knowledge outside the anime itself, it would increase participation.
 
So Angel Beats gets the most awards this year. Well at least Bakemonogatari was shut out and I'm glad to see K-On get at least one award. I actually found Angel Beats to be a little dull, but i have no grips about these results.


and did anyone find this phrase ironic?
"No more Worst Show since there is a lack of popularity in this category"
 
In that case, consider it done. Best Seiyuu will be changed to Best Character under the restriction that the character must be fully identifiable. This means that the character must not only be a recurring character in the series (i.e. the character cannot just show up for 5 minutes in one episode and never show up again). The character must serve a primary or secondary role in the main cast. Anything below that will be considered null. This is to avoid random nominations like the ones in Saimoe, e.g. "the girl on was walking in a swimsuit in the background in Code Geass"

I will also consider changing the category of Most Enjoyable to Guilty Pleasure. In addition, I'll make sure to define what each categories mean next time.

QUOTE And for having many ties you could do it as warsprite said and count the ranks different. For example Rank 1 is 5, 2 is 4 and so on.
I did this for a couple years when I first started this, but then I had complaints let alone realizations that this is a very poor method in prelims because of how much more easily the results can be skewed.

Example: List your top 5 characters in order and say only the top 4 is accepted into the finals:
here's one person's list:
1) Kirino
2) Kuroneko
3) Mio
4) Zakuro
5) Sora

Vote Total: Kirino: 5, Kuroneko 4, Mio 3, Zakuro 2, Sora 1

and here's another person's:
1) Sora
2) Mio
3) Zakuro
4) Kirino
5) Kuroneko

Vote Total: Kirino 7, Kuroneko 5, Mio 7, Zakuro 5, Sora 6

With a single person's vote the outcome can be manipulated and this disappointed many since random stuff suddenly gets lumped in the final poll and makes the poll no longer any fun or interesting.

Another category I intend on correcting is Best Soundtrack to simply Best Sound, which would be defined as ranging from appropriate voice casting to background themes, and so on. Thoughts on this?
 
About Best Character: I really want to know if someone in this board would do that as in saimoe XD But the change itself from Best Seiyuu to best Character is great.

About Guilty Pleasure: A nice addition/change especailly since almost all series nowadays could be counted as Guilty Pleasure ^^

About the voting itself: Yes youre right it gives the vote of a single person too much power.

About Best Sound: A nice change but I still wont vote on it since I dont really care how the sound was after I already watched it so I dont remember a few minutes after watching if it was good or not, not to say 3 months later ^^
 
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