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#1 EggBeast

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Posted 11 January 2008 - 04:38 AM

Drugs, drugs, DRUGS!!! All you hear about lately is drugs!!! Well, maybe not... but I recently heard a few American presidential candidates talking about legalizing drug use/abuse, the reason being to loosen the government's grasp on its people, save precious funds for the treasury, and greatly reduce crime.

There are a number of ways to approach the issue. You can discuss the ethics of drug usage/abusage. You can look at the cost/benefits of legalizing drugs. You can argue whether or not drug usage should be a right (much like privacy, or free speech).

The issue really is a tricky one to approach, there are good arguments all the way around, and no matter how I've thought about it, I've never been able to fully decide whether or not free drug usage should be a guaranteed human right.

But as for my personal take on the issue, I thought a lot about it a while back, and I'm personally a fan legalizing drugs. Not so much for the cost benefits of it, though. I mean, it's all well and good that doing away with the "war on drugs" would save precious money, and it would definitely reduce the prison population, loosen the government's grasp over our lives, all sorts of sweet stuff. But the stuff I'm interested in is the ethics of it all.

It's my personal belief that all people have a right to their own privacy (as does the supreme court), and as such, have the right to maintain their own health as they wish. Therefore, if someone were to hypothetically go drug-crazy, totally fry their mind and body, it would be very important to reach out to them and offer them help and support, but it would ultimately be their own business (except for one majorly metaphorical wrench I'll talk about later). Drug-man decided to go drug-crazy, and was willing to accept the consequences, both the pleasurable and the not-so-pleasurable. Due to reasons best kept in the "Nature of Reality" thread, no one could legitimately that his decision is wrong, or that he's be better off not living ing Drugland, USA. There are decisive downsides to hardcore drug usage, yes, but believe it or not, there are intelligent beings out their who accept those costs and believe that the enjoyable aspect of drugs makes up for it, addiction and all.

The wrench that gets thrown into all of it, though, is that due to the mind-altering effects of drugs, Mr. Drug-man (still on his hardcore drug marathon) begins making his own personal drug-affinity other people's business. And obvious example of this is DUI. Someone gets drunk, drives impaired, and BAM! kills a young, hot, blond mother minding her own human rights. Then there are the violence-inducing drugs, which I've heard some real horror stories about, but I'm sure I don't need to go any further in that regard. All-in-all, oftentimes drug usage impairs your ability to respect the rights of others, which is no good at all. And then there's the issue of just punishment for someone who's committed horrible crimes while impaired by drugs. Mr. Drugged-up-Criminal didn't commit the crime out of his own free will, but where's the retribution?

The whole issue gets really sticky. But overall, I'm a fan of the legalization of drugs. I suppose if drugs do get legalized, programs will be put into place to warn of the dangers of drugs, and to urge safe usage that would minimize the risk of terrible, terrible mistakes from happening (i.e., drug-induced murder).

I'm sure a lot of my tendency to support free drug-usage stems from my personal affinity of individual rights. But I'm sure I'm not looking at the whole issue here; Tell me what you think!
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#2 poonk

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Posted 17 January 2008 - 07:45 AM

So, you knew this topic would draw me in sooner or later, right, EggBeast? *laughs* Although I'm not going to be disagreeing with you, so this thread may go nowhere... but let's have fun while it lasts, okay?

QUOTE (EggBeast @ Jan 10 2008, 10:38 PM)
There are a number of ways to approach the issue.  You can discuss the ethics of drug usage/abusage.  You can look at the cost/benefits of legalizing drugs.  You can argue whether or not drug usage should be a right (much like privacy, or free speech).
...
I've never been able to fully decide whether or not free drug usage should be a guaranteed human right.
...
It's my personal belief that all people have a right to their own privacy (as does the supreme court), and as such, have the right to maintain their own health as they wish.  Therefore, if someone were to hypothetically go drug-crazy, totally fry their mind and body, it would be very important to reach out to them and offer them help and support, but it would ultimately be their own business
I think I understand where you're coming from-- should people be protected from themselves, basically? And who is to decide what behavior would require such "protection"? When you know someone's making a really bad choice (and while I'm all for legalization of marijuana, I do think there are some [synthesized] drugs that effectively alter one's biochemistry, making recovery unlikely, or at least incredibly difficult), should you (as a governing body) create legislation to (at least try to) prevent this from happening? We don't do this with regard to other self-destructive acts like unsafe sex, poor nutrition/exercise habits, etc., but maybe that's because the effects are not as immediately obvious as truly out-of-control drug abuse. (not to mention, unsafe sex probably never contributed to a car crash-- oh wait, that is probably not true *giggles* but that's another topic altogether)

(P.S. Sorry about the blatant abuse of parentheses, brackets, and italics in that last paragraph.)

QUOTE
The wrench that gets thrown into all of it, though, is that due to the mind-altering effects of drugs, Mr. Drug-man (still on his hardcore drug marathon) begins making his own personal drug-affinity other people's business.  And obvious example of this is DUI.  Someone gets drunk, drives impaired, and BAM! kills a young, hot, blond mother minding her own human rights.
Like you pointed out, I think the best example of this is drunk driving and hey, alcohol's still legal, and "But I was drunk" is not a legal defense for any action taken while intoxicated. I don't see why the same standard couldn't hold for any other drug.
("Young, hot, blonde mother" *pfft* Way to push all the All-American hotbuttons! Although in my mind, I'm weeping over a "young, hot cat-boy" [not really] [dang, there's that parentheses/bracket abuse again!!])

QUOTE
Then there are the violence-inducing drugs, which I've heard some real horror stories about, but I'm sure I don't need to go any further in that regard.  All-in-all, oftentimes drug usage impairs your ability to respect the rights of others, which is no good at all.  And then there's the issue of just punishment for someone who's committed horrible crimes while impaired by drugs.  Mr. Drugged-up-Criminal didn't commit the crime out of his own free will, but where's the retribution?
I'm really not sure about the concept of people committing acts that are totally against their nature while under the influence. I guess I don't know enough about the effects of some of the more hardcore drugs, but I'm basically not down with the whole "somehow these drugs made me do something totally against my nature" argument. The only explanation I can think of is that some drugs are so powerfully mind-altering that they basically reduce a person to their id, and they do whatever they please while under the influence. But, for example, as drunk as I've been (and, admittedly, I've been pretty dang drunk before), I would never, for example, squash a bug while intoxicated (because I have moral problems with it).

QUOTE
The whole issue gets really sticky.  But overall, I'm a fan of the legalization of drugs.  I suppose if drugs do get legalized, programs will be put into place to warn of the dangers of drugs, and to urge safe usage that would minimize the risk of terrible, terrible mistakes from happening (i.e., drug-induced murder).

I'm sure a lot of my tendency to support free drug-usage stems from my personal affinity of individual rights.  But I'm sure I'm not looking at the whole issue here; Tell me what you think!
What I think? I think you're an incredibly intelligent 19-year-old? *laughs* Besides that, I guess I too fall on the side of individual rights, as long as they don't interfere with others' rights (to life, liberty, etc.). Bring on the arguments!

#3 EggBeast

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Posted 17 January 2008 - 09:30 AM

QUOTE (poonk @ Jan 17 2008, 12:45 AM)
So, you knew this topic would draw me in sooner or later, right, EggBeast? *laughs*

*laughs maniacally* Mwah ha ha hah!!! The bait was just too sweet, wasn't it? laugh.gif But enough of that!

QUOTE
should you (as a governing body) create legislation to (at least try to) prevent this from happening? We don't do this with regard to other self-destructive acts like unsafe sex, poor nutrition/exercise habits, etc., but maybe that's because the effects are not as immediately obvious as truly out-of-control drug abuse.

You make a good point with the unsafe sex / poor health habits argument. Obesity is the 2nd leading preventable cause of death in America (at least last I checked), but you don't see a "war on obesity" going on, at least not in the sense that police brute squads are invading houses and confiscating fatty foods, the way they do cocaine (lol, that would be really funny in a video, though tongue.gif ). But yeah, there's no lasting argument against legalizing drugs based solely on the fact that (most) drugs are bad for your body/mind/spirit/chakra/inner-chi/hormonal-production/whatever. But then... there's the mind-altering effects, the ones that reduce your free will, your ability to govern your body, your ability to control your emotions. Say there's some generic dude who looks at you with an annoying smirk. Normally, you'd only react with slight annoyance, right? But having taken a certain unnamed drug, your reaction would be vamped up to a blind-rage, resulting in an insane drug-induced beating of that generic guy (don't generic guys have it the worst? sad.gif )
QUOTE
"But I was drunk" is not a legal defense for any action taken while intoxicated. I don't see why the same standard couldn't hold for any other drug.
Hmm, but it gets tricky there. Taking drugs out of it for now, hurting someone accidentally and harming someone intentionally are put on entirely different tiers in the American justice system. The punishments for breaking someone's foot because you fell down some stairs and for breaking someone's foot because you hate their guts incur entirely different dimensions of punishment. A person's motives play a huge role in the justice system.

...but I still think I agree with you. I think that by participating in drug usage, one should agree to pay for any harm they cause while under the influence of their mind-tripping drugs. But then say someone gets killed because of it. You can't really pay the cost of that person's life now, can you? I don't think death-penalty would be in any way suited for it. And long-term impriisonment would seem awefully harsh for this poor, poor dude who just had too much to drink last night. I dunno, I might be sympathizing more than I should, 'cause I'm a total individualist (that doesn't mean egoist!), and I can see nothing but this beautiful, wonderful person's life being wasted away in prison because he did away with his mental faculties for one night (aka got uber-drunk).

Responsibility is definitely the key in any case, but deciding what punishment to dish out gets... awfully difficult.
QUOTE
("Young, hot, blonde mother" *pfft* Way to push all the All-American hotbuttons! Although in my mind, I'm weeping over a "young, hot cat-boy" [not really])
Hey, I've got the get the sympathy points from somewhere! laugh.gif
QUOTE
What I think? I think you're an incredibly intelligent 19-year-old?

"why thank you for that wonderful compliment!" (quoting a certain hilarious RPG game I've been wasting my life away on for the past few days, which is weird, because I haven't played a hardcore RPG for years!) But dang, everyone at FTV is smart! It's amazing!

Have a wonderful day, everyone! And don't forget to smack me in the face! (aka get me off my high-horse and tells me what's really going down with them drugz! tongue.gif )
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#4 poonk

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Posted 17 January 2008 - 09:59 AM

QUOTE (EggBeast @ Jan 17 2008, 03:30 AM)
Say there's some generic dude who looks at you with an annoying smirk.  Normally, you'd only react with slight annoyance, right?  But having taken a certain unnamed drug, your reaction would be vamped up to a blind-rage, resulting in an insane drug-induced beating of that generic guy (don't generic guys have it the worst? sad.gif )
Ah, but those generic guys, you know-- they always deserve those beatings. *laughs*

QUOTE
Hmm, but it gets tricky there.  Taking drugs out of it for now, hurting someone accidentally and harming someone intentionally are put on entirely different tiers in the American justice system.  The punishments for breaking someone's foot because you fell down some stairs and for breaking someone's foot because you hate their guts incur entirely different dimensions of punishment.  A person's motives play a huge role in the justice system.
I think the argument for culpability begins (or at least, should begin) at the fact that, imbibing said intoxicated substances, you should (reasonably) know that your reaction/coordination will be reasonably lessened, and you should act (or not act, in the case of driving) accordingly. But it's so not black-and-white... it's a shame there's just not a way to effectively prevent someone from driving.

QUOTE
And long-term imprisonment would seem awefully harsh for this poor, poor dude who just had too much to drink last night.  I dunno, I might be sympathizing more than I should, 'cause I'm a total individualist (that doesn't mean egoist!), and I can see nothing but this beautiful, wonderful person's life being wasted away in prison because he did away with his mental faculties for one night (aka got uber-drunk).
...
Responsibility is definitely the key in any case, but deciding what punishment to dish out gets... awfully difficult.
This is such a difficult one-- a lifetime in jail seems a bit much for someone who's picked up drunk driving once, but so many drunk drivers seem to end up being picked up multiple times; it's hard to sympathize after the 5th DUI, when they're just obviously just blatantly endangering the public safety...

QUOTE
Have a wonderful day, everyone!  And don't forget to smack me in the face! (aka get me off my high-horse and tells me what's really going down with them drugz! tongue.gif )
*will not smack you in the face, unless you like that sorta thing...* Okay, I reeeeealllly gotta get to bed now (it's 4am), but I'm anticipating responses/arguments...

#5 chiisai_hana

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Posted 17 January 2008 - 04:03 PM

It's an interesting issue of public vs. private rights. And I think, in certain instances, drugs could be legalized. But even if that happens, you're still going to have lots of laws that will have to deal with drug-related problems. For example, is it going to be legal to grow your own drugs? Because transforming an apartment into a grow-op provides risks to the people living in the building. What about where you can do drugs? The trend in Canada is toward banning smoking in all public areas - if drugs are legalized, how will use be treated?

Alcohol isn't illegal now, but it was once. And societies are trying to stamp out smoking, not to mention, at least where I live, they're enforcing stricter laws on drinking and driving. It just doesn't seem like something that would benefit a society trying to think more about public health and safety. You want to dissuade young people from picking up these habits, not legalizing it. I don't know enough about drugs in particular to give a decent opinion, but in the larger view, I don't see it happening and in most cases, would not agree with it happening because I don't see how the pros outweigh the cons.

On the (off)topic of fatty foods and such, Calgary Alberta has begun to regulate the amount of trans fat allowed in restaurant foods.
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As of Jan. 1, Calgary eateries were banned from cooking with fats and oils that contain more than two per cent trans fats. The same rule applies to all margarines and margarine-based spreads served in those outlets.
http://www.thestar.com/article/291426

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#6 monsta

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Posted 17 January 2008 - 04:39 PM

Not relevant to America as you pay for health but in Britain where its free there is another issue. A person taking drugs is more likely to end up in hospital which means the tax payer would have to pay for the extra costs. So in way there self harming is actually effecting everyone.

#7 EggBeast

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Posted 19 January 2008 - 07:50 AM

I actually think things like unhealthy eating are very relevant to this topic. If you say legalizing drugs is bad just because drugs are bad for people, then you'd have to ban all other self-destructive activities, like eating junk-food, addictions to certain anime-devoted websites, all kinds of stuff. It helps conceptualize just how much hand a government should have in maintaining it's citizens' health.

QUOTE
Not relevant to America as you pay for health but in Britain where its free there is another issue. A person taking drugs is more likely to end up in hospital which means the tax payer would have to pay for the extra costs. So in way there self harming is actually effecting everyone.
That could possibly happen, but I don't think the additional medical costs of an increased drug-using population (whether there would be a noticeable increase is in itself debatable) would even touch on the cost it takes to arrest these drug users/sellers and keep them imprisoned, all the while they do nothing to contribute to the economy. Plus if there was a nation that legalized drugs, it would most likely place heavy taxes on these drugs, so I (along with many leading politicians) believe the legalization of drugs would be nothing but good for the economy.
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#8 Dalriada

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Posted 19 January 2008 - 08:33 AM

QUOTE
I actually think things like unhealthy eating are very relevant to this topic.  If you say legalizing drugs is bad just because drugs are bad for people, then you'd have to ban all other self-destructive activities, like eating junk-food, addictions to certain anime-devoted websites, all kinds of stuff.  It helps conceptualize just how much hand a government should have in maintaining it's citizens' health.


The key word is 'addiction' (more specifically physical addiction).
Watching animes is not addictive (worst case if you don't watch them : you'll be bored to death). Eating at McDonalds is not addictive ; It's almost repulsive indeed (moreover, usually junk food is bad only when taken regularly. Eating once a month in a fast food won't be unhealthy).

QUOTE

That could possibly happen, but I don't think the additional medical costs of an increased drug-using population (whether there would be a noticeable increase is in itself debatable) would even touch on the cost it takes to arrest these drug users/sellers and keep them imprisoned, all the while they do nothing to contribute to the economy.


Highly debatable.
The cost of drugs is quite high (we have studies on nicotin, a socially accepted soft drug).
Firstly on the public health level (the number of death related to tobacco and alcohol is impressive, at least in the Western countries).
Secondly on a criminal level. Drugs are addictive and mind-altering, so some drug-users will do the most extrem things, including breaking the law, to find their drug. Even legalizing drugs wouldn't help, because they would still have to find the money (Warning : I'm speaking here about hard drugs, not about tobacco or cannabis).
Thirdly, thinking that every drug dealers wouldn't break the law in another way if drug was legalised is optimistic.

About the taxes, I'm sure they would exist and would be very high. But too high taxes would bring smugglers into the equation (again, we have the exampe of tobacco).

Conclusion : (IMO,) Legalisation would work for the softest drugs (like cannabis. It's the case in some countries and they haven't become a pit of hell. Yet). Although I'm not sure it's the best solution (need more data ^^).
For hard drugs (heroin, cocain...), I'm highly unconvinced.
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#9 void_er

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Posted 20 January 2008 - 07:02 PM

i am in favor of legalising drugs.

if this were done there would be a quality control, it would be taxed...

#10 warita200

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Posted 20 January 2008 - 08:21 PM

When I started reading about legalizing drugs, I had to think about alcohol immediately, after all that is a legal drug.

So before we move onto the drug level, I would like to point out, how much trouble alcohol causes ..... coz its not little. We all know what drunk, violence loving teenagers do, when they had a glass too many, we also know what a family of an alcoholics looks like.
As for drugs the effects are even worse, because ppl get addicted a lot faster and after they used up their saving to buy drugs, they start cmmiting crime to get enough dough to buy their shot. I dont see how we can legalize drugs, and stop ppl from robbing and prostituting themselves, just because they need to get some money to buy their dosis.
The problem with drugs and criminality is, that ones trapped in the addiction, the addict doesnt have any control of himself. He commited a huge mistake, when he started taking drugs and maybe he is sorry by now, but he cant help it. So, it is not just his personal business whether he takes drugs or not, it concerns the whole society. So, if we lgalize drugs, how can we prevent this problem?

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#11 EggBeast

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Posted 21 January 2008 - 02:05 AM

It's important to keep in mind here that people are already getting helplessly addicted to drugs, wasting their lives away, rotting, and taking a swipe at society while their at it. I think the problem with that is that now that people are currently taking drugs (hardcore drugs, that is), they have to focus on not getting caught, and evading the authorities, whereas if drugs were legalized, the emphasis would be placed more upon responsible usage. I believe it was Albert Freakin' Einstein who said that nothing contributes more to a people's criminal nature then having laws that cannot be enforced (like the laws against drug usage, since people are able to sell, grow, and use drugs without getting caught, it shows a failure on the part of the government).

And look at American history back when alcohol was banned. Crime shot through the roof, and everyone continued drinking regardless of the law.

The way to prevent more people from getting hopelessly addicted to hard (and soft) drugs in a legal-drug environment would be to place an emphasis on safe, responsible usage, put certain programs into place, tax up the drugs, and so forth. I really don't think we'd see an outbreak of crime or an outbreak of addicts if drugs became legalized, and we've got the historical example of alcohol being banned to support that claim.

...but there's always the possibility of a partial legalization of drugs. I mean, I hear all kinds of people here wanting cannabis legalized, but not so much with the hardcore mind-melting drugs that are out there. What if all drugs but the ones that instantly and irreversibly fried your brain were legalized? Would that be preferable to a total legalization of drugs? Would it see the (presumed) economic benefits that a full-scale legalization would incur? I dunno... maybe. But I'm not so much into partiality when it comes to the law. I think I'm still in favor of total legalization.
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#12 warita200

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Posted 21 January 2008 - 07:35 AM

Eggie-san, I think you are wrong.

Place emhasis on safe usage is not going to solve the problem..... well drugs are not like cigarettes or.... even to some extent alcohol and mariahuana. With soft drugs you could possibly have control over yourself and your consumption over a long period of time, but that doesnt go for heroin, cocain and other hard core drugs.

The person becomes addicted really fast and as the body gets used to the drug, it requieres a higher dosis and it turns the person in a mindless blob. You could label heroin with warning signs as much as you would like, it wouldnt change anything. Its like with cigarettes, those who smoke dont care. They dont care what it does to them, nor do they care what it does to their surrounding.

Once a person becomes addicted to hard core drugs, he totally loses control over himself. His addiction becomes something, that has control over him. I dont see how you could solve this problem by placing labels and emphasizing safe usage.

PS: as for legalizing marihuana..... well, personally I am against all mind altering substances, but if ppl really really want it, HEY, go ahead. But if we legalize marihuana, lets put some restriction to it. You want a drivers licence?.... please here you have a cup for a urin sample. You want a responsible job, there you have your cup!!! And so on .... and so on, you get the idea. wink.gif I would not want to see any mariahuana smoking person in a responsible position, just as I wouldnt want an alcoholic surgeon performing a surgery on me.

#13 EggBeast

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Posted 21 January 2008 - 08:27 AM

Dang! This "Eggie-san" bizness looks like it's here to stay! *sigh* oh well, I guess that's just the price I pay for existing... tongue.gif

But I don't know, warittie-sempai, we've already got rehabilitation centers in place for those who abuse drugs, and that wouldn't change if drugs get legalized. People would still get the help they need, perhaps even more so, because they wouldn't have to hide the fact they've been illegally destroying themselves.

People are going to destroy themselves with drugs whether it's legal or not, and I'm not seeing any evidence that legalizing drugs with create an explosion of drug-abuse.


...but of course I'm sure there would be restrictions on those who could use drugs on a local basis. I'm sure many companies, such as hospitals, would restrict their employees from partaking of the sweet, sweet drug-ness which has by now become so seductively legal tongue.gif . I still think that in a nation with legalized drugs, a huge emphasis would be placed upon responsibility, rather than abstinence (in regards to drugs, of course tongue.gif)
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#14 MikeLXXXVIII

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Posted 23 January 2008 - 11:44 PM

QUOTE (warita200 @ Jan 20 2008, 02:21 PM)
When I started reading about legalizing drugs, I had to think about alcohol immediately, after all that is a legal drug.

So before we move onto the drug level, I would like to point out, how much trouble alcohol causes ..... coz its not little. We all know what drunk, violence loving teenagers do, when they had a glass too many, we also know what a family of an alcoholics looks like.
As for drugs the effects are even worse, because ppl get addicted a lot faster and after they used up their saving to buy drugs, they start cmmiting crime to get enough dough to buy their shot. I dont see how we can legalize drugs, and stop ppl from robbing and prostituting themselves, just because they need to get some money to buy their dosis.
The problem with drugs and criminality is, that ones trapped in the addiction, the addict doesnt have any control of himself. He commited a huge mistake, when he started taking drugs and maybe he is sorry by now, but he cant help it. So, it is not just his personal business whether he takes drugs or not, it concerns the whole society. So, if we lgalize drugs, how can we prevent this problem?

smile.gif

You speak of truth,

Well Id be pretty much against this, as what you have said over the already effects of alcohol usage,

I wouldn't think there is much more reason to make it worse, people may think they can do things better than others who have lost control but reality is different,

Now ill id like to say how id love to make Alcohol illegal, sure nobody is with me on this

But to say why, you can look at all of the problems caused,
and eventhough if making it illegal won't stop people from consuming these things (this is universal about all types of drugs)
At least the goverment won't be supporting it, another fact is that people are also intimidated by illegal things so consumption would be less than if like drugs were legal (where you have no concerns over consequences),

Good example of how laws and different regulations can affect peoples habits, are to take an example of European countries where the legal age for buying Alcohol/Cigarettes is 16..
When the laws are in that matter, its very likely that people start even earlier,
As of Norway where I live, our strict regulations of alcohol has helped keeping the consuming rate of much lower than other places, but I know in the US the results are of a different case (where the legal age is 21 where it hasn't necessary helped)

That is due to our historical/cultural differences, and also how the state handles it/approaches the citizen

But at these places where you earlier gain the right to buy Alcohol/Cigarettes, it has definetly not made the situations any better, so you people still think legalizing other types of drugs would bring stability due to allowing it?

Someone better give us some information about the differences between when the Netherlands started legalising Weed/Cannabis and before it happened, im pretty sure the consumption increased much..
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#15 EggBeast

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Posted 24 January 2008 - 08:16 AM

QUOTE (MikeLXXXVIII @ Jan 23 2008, 04:44 PM)
Now ill id like to say how id love to make Alcohol illegal, sure nobody is with me on this

Have you ever heard of the American Prohibition? Alcohol was made illegal. Guess what happened? Alcohol consumption increased, and the crime rate exploded, which is why the alcohol ban was later revoked by a later constitutional amendment.

I really don't think that if drugs get legalized, there will be a massive outbreak of use/abuse. Sure, people will use/abuse it, but how would that be any different from now? Well, for one thing, it would take the government further away from our personal lives, it would definitely reduce the costs, help out our already-overflowing prisons, and place more emphasis on personal responsibility, as opposed to a universal reward/punishment system, all of which I'm a huge fan of.

But MikeLXXXVIII, on a separate note which totally relates to this thread, I LOVE your avatar and signature! So cool! laugh.gif
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#16 samthebear

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Posted 24 January 2008 - 09:15 AM

Personal responsibility seems to be what you're trying to drive a point into egg beast, but being humans - we err. what one person deems to be 'responsible' is absolutely irresponsible to another. you can try as hard as you like to emphasise personal responsibility but how many drugged up/high people do you know actually understand the meaning of 'responsibility'?

the idea of personal responsibility is the ideal - it belongs to this world called utopia where everyone trusts everyone else and general hate, distrust, negative emotions etc etc does not exist and only the ideals exist. How ever - this isn't utopia, you've got 16 year olds shooting up their schools trying to blame some one for how society treated them etc, you've got people believing in totally whacked up ideas of mytrdom (of the bad kind involving killing lots and lots of innocent by standers), this world is seriously flawed. period. there is no way in hell that this personal responsibility thing will get much results. sane people like you and I will never even get started on this - try convincing an insane person that drugs are bad when they feel so good using it and probably distruping people's lives around them.

anyways, to sum up. personal responsibility is good and all but not everone will follow it. my 2 cents.
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#17 chiisai_hana

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Posted 24 January 2008 - 03:25 PM

QUOTE (EggBeast @ Jan 21 2008, 04:27 AM)
because they wouldn't have to hide the fact they've been illegally destroying themselves.

Because they could do it legally? I don't really see how this is going to help anyone. If people don't want help, they are not going to take it. It is legal to "destroy yourself" with alcohol/cigarettes but how many people get the help they need before it has gone too far? The role models for youth these days are Hollywood stars who don't get the help they need until they're ordered by a court - and that's for legal stuff.

Like samthebear said, it sounds like you have an idealized vision of society where people would do what is best for them and others. But by taking away the government power to enforce the laws, some people are going to suffer. What if you're the relative of a heavy drug user who is able to use the laws to get your relation the help they need - when those laws are gone, will you have as much power? People don't like being told what to do, especially if what they're doing isn't against the law. The laws were created for a reason, not just so the government could control lives.
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#18 MikeLXXXVIII

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Posted 24 January 2008 - 04:58 PM

QUOTE (EggBeast @ Jan 24 2008, 02:16 AM)
Have you ever heard of the American Prohibition?  Alcohol was made illegal.  Guess what happened?  Alcohol consumption increased, and the crime rate exploded, which is why the alcohol ban was later revoked by a later constitutional amendment.

I really don't think that if drugs get legalized, there will be a massive outbreak of use/abuse.  Sure, people will use/abuse it, but how would that be any different from now?  Well, for one thing, it would take the government further away from our personal lives, it would definitely reduce the costs, help out our already-overflowing prisons, and place more emphasis on personal responsibility, as opposed to a universal reward/punishment system, all of which I'm a huge fan of.

But MikeLXXXVIII, on a separate note which totally relates to this thread, I LOVE your avatar and signature!  So cool! laugh.gif

Okay you are right there,
I admit such has happened, but I think it could work too
But it depends on some nations history/philosophy of course,

Well about the alcohol being illegal, was it really non toleration for alcohol? where you could only drink alcohol free beers?
In europe when they made regulations, you still could consume alcohol it was just (the strongest drinks being illegal)

One of the main reasons why they got rid of the restrictions in law (in Norway it seems), wasn't because of people growing in consumption around here, but infact that it hurted peoples trading with foreign countries (that we imported certain strong alcohol types/and in return they bought our fish)

Why I ask of if it was really totaly made illegal, is because its been exaggerated, the meaning of these restrictions, it made me infact believe alcohol was really made illegal (and not certain types that led easily to social problems), so I have to question it smile.gif

I know like in many South American countries, laws dont help much in making people "behave",
Like the police are being headhunted and people/groups who are kidnapping/raping/killing people and getting easily away with it,
Ironically when Latin America got free from colonization, they envisioned positively about their future and thought of becoming leading examples like some countries in Europe, (sorry off topic but historical references can teach about why things might be different between countries, but I dont know much of latin americas history yet)

But when it comes to us being the ones to have the right and also prove that we can ourselves improve our habits, I pretty much doubt that as of us taking responsibility,
I don't deny that some manage to do so, and that we have progressed very well in just 100 years, but still there is a long way to go, it seems to me neither authoritarian control or so called democracy don't seem create more sensable human beings...

Okay ill drop my case now, I felt like expressing this,

haha its okay about the off topic stuff,
Do you relate to my avatar and signature (as in you know where they are from) or is its just appealing? smile.gif

Another thing! im glad because people seem so kind on this forum!! (sure kindness goes in different ways and I have strong demands for such) but im really suprised over this,
I was afraid at first of being bombarded with things (in a bad way)..
But it seems as if people seem to be (so far as ive seen it) acceptable and speak in a right approachable manner towards each other,
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#19 chiisai_hana

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Posted 25 January 2008 - 02:47 AM

QUOTE (MikeLXXXVIII @ Jan 24 2008, 12:58 PM)
Well about the alcohol being illegal, was it really non toleration for alcohol? where you could only drink alcohol free beers?

Why I ask of if it was really totaly made illegal, is because its been exaggerated, the meaning of these restrictions, it made me infact believe alcohol was really made illegal (and not certain types that led easily to social problems), so I have to question it smile.gif

You're wording is confusing me, but if you're question whether Prohibition made alcohol completely illegal, yes, it did. It was a movement in the earlier part of the twentieth century in which the production, importation and consumption of alcohol was banned. The movement was led by women and religious groups who were trying to "clean up" society and reinforce family and Christian values. I don't know much about it specifically, but that is a general basis. Because of this, there was a lot of cross-border smuggling and bootlegging of alcohol since people could not get what they wanted legally.

But in the case of Prohibition, something which was legal was made illegal. Drugs have never been legal and are not used by a majority of the population. So while some parallels can be drawn, it's not a completely similar situation.
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#20 EggBeast

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Posted 25 January 2008 - 08:07 AM

QUOTE (chiisai_hana @ Jan 24 2008, 08:25 AM)
Like samthebear said, it sounds like you have an idealized vision of society where people would do what is best for them and others. But by taking away the government power to enforce the laws, some people are going to suffer. What if you're the relative of a heavy drug user who is able to use the laws to get your relation the help they need - when those laws are gone, will you have as much power? People don't like being told what to do, especially if what they're doing isn't against the law.

I'm not making some assumption that we're living in a perfect world.

Let me use another example. In America (I use America because I'm a fat-cat American), a large majority of people do NOT smoke cigarettes, despite the fact that it's legal to do so. The reason they don't smoke cigarettes is because they know the harmful effects of smoking, because of the addiction, the cost, and largely due to a long term anti-smoking campaign that's been going on in America for who knows how long. Now why, if these people already know the harmful effects of tobacco, would they start taking even more hardcore drugs, which would cost even more? I'd argue that they wouldn't. But this leaves the individuals who are already taking drugs, yes? I'll not deny that they'd likely do drugs if drugs were legalized, but don't forget they're already doing drugs, many of these people are already going to have problem with their drug usage, regardless of whether it's "legal" or not. And then you can't forget that there are actually responsible drug users out there. Believe it or not, they do exist, they are aware of the consequences of drug usage, and can do they're dang-fangled joints in a respectful, safe manner.

And I'm not seeing any sound arguments saying that drug usage/abusage will explode after legalizing drugs, and I've got (what I see as) 2 fairly solid examples of how it wouldn't.
QUOTE
The laws were created for a reason, not just so the government could control lives.

In California, it's illegal to play a trumpet with the intention of luring a customer into your shop. In Los Angeles, it's illegal to lick a toad. In New Jersey, the only stores allowed to be open are grocery and liquor stores. In Tennessee you MUST believe in God to be elected to office, and you must not have ever participated in a duel.

Not all laws were created by omniscient super humans. Some of them were actually passed to fulfill personal agendas/personal moral codes/propaganda. It's not a bad idea to question the existence of a law, or anything for that matter. You're ideas are just as valid as a politicians, if not, more so. This doesn't have to apply to drugs though.

But seriously guys, drugs are bad for you! Don't take them unless you can accept that! laugh.gif

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Do you relate to my avatar and signature (as in you know where they are from) or is its just appealing? biggrin.gif

Due to the stringent laws of of Fansub.tv, I am obligated to say "off-topic comments are not allowed!" tongue.gif Methinks we can make a personal message of this!
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Another thing! im glad because people seem so kind on this forum!! (sure kindness goes in different ways and I have strong demands for such) but im really suprised over this,

It's true! FTV is truly an awesome community. We've got some of the most amiable people you'll ever meet!
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