Veganism/Vegetarianism


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MikeLXXXVIII

-chan
Kouhai
Well i'd like to open an discussion about our unethical/unequal treatment of animals, but be warned I don't want any contributors saying stupid things like
animals are dumb so its okay to treat them bad (well then we should treat mentally ill/handicapped people bad aswell if you have that "logic")

It is proven that animals have are much more intelligent than we suspected they were, they can feel fear/pain/distress like we all do, so when you treat them wrong it will be the same consequences as with humans,

From mine perspective, in todays society we have come far (big progression), and by far I mean we have gotten many other ways of eating and getting the right nutritions without having to kill the animal, or depending on some animals milk/eggs

Thats why its inexcuseable to eat animals, or participate with the cruel animal industry (forced labour/forced pregnancy/abuse)..
When we have other alternatives I mean,
Those who eat meat the most are wealthy countries, isn't that ironic?
We also are known for our heartdiseases because of the big consumption of meat, and bad diets in general,

If you really doubt that you can live without animals, look around for proven scientific researches when it comes to nutritions, you can get all the nutritions you get out of animals elsewhere, in plants/fruit and so on...
But sure then it will demand more of your diet, you have think more of where to get these things individually than relying on dairy products/meat to give the nutritions the "easy" way,
Then again even meat/dairy consumers need vegetables/fruit in order to live a "healthy" life,

Anyways this is my path I know everyone has their ways, but thats why we are to discusss this, im curious about if there are vegetarians/vegans on this forum as well

And if you still eat meat, its not like I look at you with disgusts necessary,
Of course not! but I demand those who participate in the unfair treatment of animals should be aware and think of where their food is from, thats all I ask for...

Well I know what ive said sounds also political, but I mean the unethicalness through how we eat animals, it can always be improved as how we treat them before their deaths, but id always say leading someone to death is always a horrible crime no matter what,

But its easier to agree on that we have to treat them better before we make them our food right?

So let out your thoughts people, and we will see how far we will get this topic,

Id like to contribute to this topic with links with facts and so on about the meat/dairy industry and also about vegetarian/vegan lifestyles if people out there are curious,

But we will see as this topic goes, if there is enthusiasm/interest for such..

I personally also think its great if people will decrease their meat consumption, because any effort will always make a difference, so its wrong to think im on a war against everyone not being "pure" vegetarians/vegans, its just id prefer it that way

By just decreasing your habits you would also contribute to decreasing the amount of suffering, improve your own health, pollute less (as dairy products/meat industry is one of the most polluting industries out there)
You gain all of this by just lowering the amount of meat/dairy products you consume
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!!

Btw, im sorry if I don't sound too clear and seem confusing about these things
 
I'd like to separate two points : vegetarianism and ethical treatment of animals.

  • About vegetarianim : We're omnivorous. We're designed to be able to eat meat as well as vegetable (just compare our teeth with the ones of a lion or of a cow. The three are completly different).
    So I'm no more guilty of eating meat than a lion is a eating an antilop.

    You're right that we are able to find all the necessary nutriments in vegetable. However, it demands to be much careful with your diet, it demands some time to cook something tasty (and time to cook is something people don't have) and I'm not sure it's really cheap.
    So why should we support this burden, when we have no moral obligation to do so ?



  • About ethical treatment

    Even if I eat meat, I agree with you on this point, the way animals are raised are quite often fucked-up. At least treat them decently (which mean, in my mind, don't have ten chicken in a tiny cage 24 hours a day).
 
QUOTE (Dalriada @ Jan 25 2008, 06:20 AM) I'd like to separate two points : vegetarianism and ethical treatment of animals.
  • About vegetarianim : We're omnivorous. We're designed to be able to eat meat as well as vegetable (just compare our teeth with the ones of a lion or of a cow. The three are completly different).
    So I'm no more guilty of eating meat than a lion is a eating an antilop.

    You're right that we are able to find all the necessary nutriments in vegetable. However, it demands to be much careful with your diet, it demands some time to cook something tasty (and time to cook is something people don't have) and I'm not sure it's really cheap.
    So why should we support this burden, when we have no moral obligation to do so ?



  • About ethical treatment

    Even if I eat meat, I agree with you on this point, the way animals are raised are quite often fucked-up. At least treat them decently (which mean, in my mind, don't have ten chicken in a tiny cage 24 hours a day).

Appreciate your thoughts,

But id like to say even if you are not guilty of it, the lion is however forced to eat meat correct in terms of survival?
So he would be more excused in the ways of life, while we know better and think more of our actions (they claim humans are of common sense afterall)

I have to say its a bit wrong to say it takes more time and effort to make something tasty out of a non eat meal,
I get from what perspective you are thinking, but I assure you if you try it out yourself, its pretty easy (I used to be in the same situation not to be rude)

Vegetarian/vegan food is infact easy to make, afterall you can't argue that East Asian dishes, consisting of loads of vegetables are complicated or not so tasty right?

I know that as things are now for you, probably meat is the best..
But vegetables can find replacements, like tofu things which can fool someones taste sometimes, but yeah they would demand some extra effort in order to manage such...

The support for people who are vegetarian/vegans is also less than for those who eat meat of course, but the support is there and pretty good (yeah its more costy but its also healthier too), its also never a bad thing to make food from scratch (it stays more healthy that way, without additives/preservatives that are poisonous)

Another point id like to support with Vegan/Vegetarian diet, they avoid often or at all use of unatural additives/preservatives that have proven to cause harm to our bodies..

And to me a better/important cause is always more important than the time and money that is needed to be spent on it, this applies also to organic and fair trade goods (which I support with pride)
But of course if you can't afford these things, then its bad and not your own fault (if its really that way,without you spending money on unecessary things)

But im glad to see we can agree that there is a lot of things to be improved in the way we treat them
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And in order to get somewhere, we have to start step wise!!
 
QUOTE So he would be more excused in the ways of life, while we know better and think more of our actions (they claim humans are of common sense afterall)

The question is : he would be excused of what ?
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Thinking that eating meat is something bad, that you should be excused of, is something specific to vegetarianists.

So your argument here is circular : you base your reasoning on a vegetarianist hypothesis to support vegetarianism. You see the problem.


QUOTE
Vegetarian/vegan food is infact easy to make, afterall you can't argue that East Asian dishes, consisting of loads of vegetables are complicated or not so tasty right?

It's not quicker or easier than a steak on the stove while the rice is boiling.

I understand what you're saying (except that East Asian gastronomy uses also meat, fish, shrimps ^^).
Indeed I like vegetables (except Brussel sprouts of course). But it's not so simple to make a good (tasty and dietetic) vegetarian dish in 15-30 minutes.

Then, a lot of people have no more time to cook (hence the already-prepared dishes you put in the microwaves oven) and don't have a lot of money (without being poor, they have to be careful).

About the additives/preservatives, vegetables are far far from being immune, except if you buy organic stuff, making it even more expensive.

One point where we would probably agree : it's true that there's a myth around meat (like some people thinking that a meal without meat is not a true meal. It's an extrem, but most people will 'build' a meal around the meat). And we could probably do as well or better than today with less meat.
But it's different than vegetarianism or veganism.
 
QUOTE (Dalriada @ Jan 25 2008, 07:10 AM)
The question is : he would be excused of what ?
smile.gif

Thinking that eating meat is something bad, that you should be excused of, is something specific to vegetarianists.

So your argument here is circular : you base your reasoning on a vegetarianist hypothesis to support vegetarianism. You see the problem.



It's not quicker or easier than a steak on the stove while the rice is boiling.

I understand what you're saying (except that East Asian gastronomy uses also meat, fish, shrimps ^^).
Indeed I like vegetables (except Brussel sprouts of course). But it's not so simple to make a good (tasty and dietetic) vegetarian dish in 15-30 minutes.

Then, a lot of people have no more time to cook (hence the already-prepared dishes you put in the microwaves oven) and don't have a lot of money (without being poor, they have to be careful).

About the additives/preservatives, vegetables are far far from being immune, except if you buy organic stuff, making it even more expensive.

One point where we would probably agree : it's true that there's a myth around meat (like some people thinking that a meal without meat is not a true meal. It's an extrem, but most people will 'build' a meal around the meat). And we could probably do as well or better than today with less meat.
But it's different than vegetarianism or veganism.
Even if my thoughts of calling it wrong is based on my so called "beliefs", why do we speak so fondly of humans having the right to live, sorry but when we don't see the equalness in a life of an animal or any other being, id call that ignorance..

When it comes ot the steak, think of the preparations done for you? you can put premade tofu (steaks,chicken) easily while boiling the rice too, but the irony here is that you don't have to warm as much as if it was "real",

And id make vegetarian/vegan dishes as quick or quicker than meat dishes, im not sure if im some magical person for such...

You know if you make food in general (this im about to say can be relevant to food), when you warm meat for an example, a lot of grease is let out, and it takes more effort and time to clean off that grease than if it came from vegetables right?

And I have to disagree with the fact that people "don't" have time to prepare food, yet they have so much time to other unecessary materialistic things? (im speaking of things that dont create necessary happiness, or keeps you alive as a human)
When people were forced to work on farms, they had time to make food despite most of the day going to work..

So id say its inexcusable about getting already prepare food, reality is that the reason for why people dont make food from scratch is lazyness,
I live in one the most wealthy nations in the world, people dont use their freetime in way that is necessary most of the time..

Sorry if im aggressive with these things, its just I have a lot of emotions with this topic, so you have to excuse me

Yeah I know vegetables are exploited with poison, thats why I support mainly organic food, sorry if I wasn't clear with that before,

I meant more vegetarian/vegan diet food types, that might be of an alternative interest than regular
 
What's more serious is the amount of good food that goes wasted. The amount of food that is chucked away from restaurants is unbelievable! This food could be used to feed the homeless people etc.

Don't get me started that animals life is as important as a human. Try telling that to families in the third world dying of starvation.
 
QUOTE (Dalriada @ Jan 25 2008, 07:10 AM)
The question is : he would be excused of what ?
smile.gif

Thinking that eating meat is something bad, that you should be excused of, is something specific to vegetarianists.

So your argument here is circular : you base your reasoning on a vegetarianist hypothesis to support vegetarianism. You see the problem.



It's not quicker or easier than a steak on the stove while the rice is boiling.

I understand what you're saying (except that East Asian gastronomy uses also meat, fish, shrimps ^^).
Indeed I like vegetables (except Brussel sprouts of course). But it's not so simple to make a good (tasty and dietetic) vegetarian dish in 15-30 minutes.

Then, a lot of people have no more time to cook (hence the already-prepared dishes you put in the microwaves oven) and don't have a lot of money (without being poor, they have to be careful).

About the additives/preservatives, vegetables are far far from being immune, except if you buy organic stuff, making it even more expensive.

One point where we would probably agree : it's true that there's a myth around meat (like some people thinking that a meal without meat is not a true meal. It's an extrem, but most people will 'build' a meal around the meat). And we could probably do as well or better than today with less meat.
But it's different than vegetarianism or veganism.
Even if my thoughts of calling it wrong is based on my so called "beliefs", why do we speak so fondly of humans having the right to live, sorry but when we don't see the equalness in a life of an animal or any other being, id call that ignorance..
There is not such a thing as equality or respect when we allow ourselves to be superior compared to other living beings (meaning that their deaths shall not be as much in vain as ours),

When it comes to the steak, think of the preparations done for you? (before you buy it) and you can put premade tofu (steaks,chicken) easily in the oven while boiling the rice too, but the irony here is that you don't have to warm as much as if it was "real" meat,

And id make vegetarian/vegan dishes as quick or quicker than meat dishes, im not sure if im some magical person for such...

You know if you make food in general (this im about to say can be relevant to food), when you warm meat for an example, a lot of grease is let out, and it takes more effort and time to clean off that grease than if it came from vegetables right?
This isn't something I just say in order to attack with arguments, but its something bothersom as a consequence you get from preparing meat,

And I have to disagree with the fact that people "don't" have time to prepare food, yet they have so much time to other unecessary materialistic things? (im speaking of things that dont create necessary happiness, or keeps you alive as a human)
When people were forced to work on farms, they had time to make food despite most of the day going to work..
I won't excuse much of their made up time and schedules, when you prepare food it will never take a whole day ever (unless your one of a kind)

So id say its inexcusable about getting already prepare food, reality is that the reason for why people dont make food from scratch is lazyness most of the time,
I live in one the most wealthy nations in the world, people don't use their freetime in way that is necessary most of the time..

Sorry if im aggressive with these things, its just I have a lot of emotions with this topic, so you have to excuse me

Yeah I know vegetables are exploited with poison, thats why I support mainly organic food, sorry if I wasn't clear with that before,

I meant more vegetarian/vegan diet food types, that might be of an alternative interest than regular (because if they are really vegetarian/vegan friendly many additives would be from animals which will contradict with the point with these products)
But what I say last might be a european trend, and not something you find there, but here organic and vegetarian product types go a lot together..


QUOTE (monsta666 @ Jan 25 2008, 01:12 PM)What's more serious is the amount of good food that goes wasted. The amount of food that is chucked away from restaurants is unbelievable! This food could be used to feed the homeless people etc.

Don't get me started that animals life is as important as a human. Try telling that to families in the third world dying of starvation.


Well when we are dying of hunger, would your fellow human really matter then?
Not really, so yeah even if they don't think that the animal is more important than them or their close ones, its the same logic with other fellow humans..
But in difference they would eat the animal first before a human yes,

Yes its very serious all the food being wasted, but you know its as important to actually think of fair trade, whos causing hunger to those you are mentioning are basically people ignoring the fair trade alternatives, no matter how more "expensive" it is, its never as expensive as the price they have to pay for making food/clothes for us...

So look at what you wear/eat/do and everything before the animal being as equality important as us should be the offense here to them,

Yes yes many people have bad and low currency, but ironically enough I can find people who don't have the best money resources (students as an example) who support fair trade and organic growth, while the wealthiests ignore these possibilities..

Plus ive never said in terms of survival that id not kill another being, meaning perhaps an animal in terms of surviving..
 
QUOTE Even if my thoughts of calling it wrong is based on my so called "beliefs", why do we speak so fondly of humans having the right to live, sorry but when we don't see the equalness in a life of an animal or any other being, id call that ignorance..

Because we're human and they're not.
It's not ignorance, humans and cows are two different species.
A cow can't adapt to a human society, except as a source of food or a source of labor. Very few animals can, and the one who can are not so easily eaten : Dogs, cats, maybe horses (well, we eat horse but it's far less common than cow/pig/sheep/rabbit/chicken/...).

A point I'd like to make. Most animals eaten by man is 'designed' to be eaten. They are almost all herbivore (or granivore, instectivore) who're prey of great predators. We rarely eat carnivore predators, except for fishes (there's a few exceptions, but it stays really uncommon).

I'm not trying to convince you (why should I ?), but to show that meat-eating doesn't come from nowhere and respect some untold rules.


QUOTE
Sorry if im aggressive with these things, its just I have a lot of emotions with this topic, so you have to excuse me

As long as you don't call me the Jack the Ripper of the cattle, I'm fine with it.
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QUOTE
What's more serious is the amount of good food that goes wasted. The amount of food that is chucked away from restaurants is unbelievable! This food could be used to feed the homeless people etc.

We've already touched this subject in this thread

-------------------------------------


QUOTE
Yes yes many people have bad and low currency, but ironically enough I can find people who don't have the best money resources (students as an example) who support fair trade and organic growth, while the wealthiests ignore these possibilities..

Actually, I buy fair trade tea (which happens to be also organic). But it's pretty much the only interesting thing available (we have also coffe, chocolate and a few other things, but I wouldn't buy it anyway).
Buying vegetables at the local producers is also a good idea (far better than buying it at your favourite supermarket). I know you won't be happy with it, but I even buy lot of my meat at a local producer (who owns both a wattle and a butchery.
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PS : Avoid posting two posts, use rather the function 'edit'. Our dear mods are touchy about that.
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Well, I've already talked about this in the animal rights thread, so if you're dieing to know my views on it, here you go.

I'm a fan of vegetarianism, but I'm not a vegetarian. I may go for it some day though... maybe not. We are naturally omnivorous after all, so if you go meatless you've got to be careful with your diet, and if you are going to be a healthy vegetarian, you'll have to fork out some serious cash.

From a sheerly ethical viewpoint, there's no way you can make a clearly defined argument for or against meat-eating, lots of it simply goes down to personal opinion. I don't give people beef (no, not that kind of beef
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) one way or the other. I think humans have a ways yet to go before going meatless on the world, but it sure wouldn't be a bad way to go.
 
QUOTE (MikeLXXXVIII @ Jan 25 2008, 12:24 PM)Well when we are dying of hunger, would your fellow human really matter then?
Not really, so yeah even if they don't think that the animal is more important than them or their close ones, its the same logic with other fellow humans..
But in difference they would eat the animal first before a human yes,


Yes you hear the odd story about cannibalism on the news but this is mainly because it is so unusual and breaks one of the long held taboos in most societies. It is not the norm and the vast majority of people would starve rather than eat people.

My main point in this discussion is that it is easy for people like us to say animals should not be killed and have equal rights when we live in a place were food is cheap and plentiful. These believes however is sorely tested when such conditions don't exist. You do see things in the news about famines and people dying due to lack of food and water but seeing this first hand is completely different (at least for me anyway). Spending sometime in Sudan I have seen such things first hand, people who are sick and hungry (including children and babies) and it makes you think is it such a terrible thing for people to eat meat?

As a result of these experiences I feel people should be entitled to eat meat. That doesn't mean I will have no respect if chooses to be a vegetarian/vegan I just wouldn't agree with it. I will also stick my neck out and say that humans are more important than animals for one reason they have greater intelligence and have more self-awareness than any other animal (including chimps).
 
QUOTE (monsta666 @ Jan 25 2008, 12:59 PM) My main point in this discussion is that it is easy for people like us to say animals should not be killed and have equal rights when we live in a place were food is cheap and plentiful. These believes however is sorely tested when such conditions don't exist. You do see things in the news about famines and people dying due to lack of food and water but seeing this first hand is completely different (at least for me anyway). Spending sometime in Sudan I have seen such things first hand, people who are sick and hungry (including children and babies) and it makes you think is it such a terrible thing for people to eat meat?

As a result of these experiences I feel people should be entitled to eat meat. That doesn't mean I will have no respect if chooses to be a vegetarian/vegan I just wouldn't agree with it. I will also stick my neck out and say that humans are more important than animals for one reason they have greater intelligence and have more self-awareness than any other animal (including chimps).
Greater intelligence doesn't mean that another's life is not as important as another. This can be applied in the human race itself. Are you implying that smarter people deserve to live more than those that are not? Such feelings of superiority is what is going to bring the downfall of humanity and of this world that we are living in. We DO NOT own this world, we were born from these very animals (if you believe in evolutionism) and it is because of them that we are now surviving. This earth has provided us with plentiful bounty and once again, we DO NOT own any of it. I think humans have gotten that stuck into their heads. We are merely a part of this world. No life is worth more than another. We all must live humbly, sure eat meat I don't care (I'm veggie btw), and I don't hate people for eating it. But eat within reason, or eat with a reason (eg.medical condition). There is otherwise no other ulterior reason for us to be eating meat and needlessly killing animals when there is no need to.

Of course we will say it is ok for us to not eat meat, it isn't neccessary to unless it is for surivival. That is why I do not see people having a proficient reason for eating meat when they live in countries (first world) that are much more bountiful in other sources of food, vitamins, nutrients and the such.In places where there is not enough food to eat, it is obvious that people will eat meat. All in all, I've talked to people who eat meat and the only reason they do it is because it tastes good and they can't resist temptation. I'm sure once they walk into those meat processing plants and actually see what goes down there they will change their minds. If you guys want meat so bad, then go out into the forest and kill your own meat as I say. That's the way to do it. Sitting on the sidelines and watching other people kill and cut for you.....of course you'll support eating it because you don't see what happens behind the scenes.
 
Whaaa...? AJ, in the thoughtful section?! I don't believe it!
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I believe you make a very good point. Differences in creatures, whether it be strength, beliefs, or even intelligence, doesn't imply superiority. Ideologies like that have been... terribly abused in the past... are still abused today.

QUOTE (xxanime_junkyxx @ Jan 25 2008, 12:39 PM)Sitting on the sidelines and watching other people kill and cut for you.....of course you'll support eating it because you don't see what happens behind the scenes.
That's not entirely true in my case. I've gutted my fair share of fish before, my cousins run a ranch, and I've seen the whole slaughtering procedure, and BOY, do I ever know how they make McNuggets! That's why, even though I'm an omnivorous fool, I'll stick with real meat (as real as I can get, anyways), thank you very much. Mass-produced, processed meat is... just wrong. But doing/seeing the actual dirty work of getting the meat, has never soured my tastes.
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Oh man, here's quote!

QUOTE (Seinfeld)Hippie: Hey Kramer, have you ever killed a man?
Kramer: What do you think, Jr? That I've lived my life, soaking my hands in ivory liquid?! BleaAaAahhh... BLEEAAAaAAAaaAaaaAAgghhh!!!!
XD Look at the blood-soaked hands of mine! Many a fish now lie in their graves for my actions!
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I think a reason this topic is so unique is that it really comes down to human nature vs. human idealism. We naturally want meat, in some cases, we need meat, but is it ethically wrong to eat meat? That all depends on how you define the ethics. Just because something is "natural", does that make it "right"? That gets hard to answer.
 
QUOTE (EggBeast @ Jan 25 2008, 01:57 PM) That's not entirely true in my case. I've gutted my fair share of fish before, my cousins run a ranch, and I've seen the whole slaughtering procedure, and BOY, do I ever know how they make McNuggets! That's why, even though I'm an omnivorous fool, I'll stick with real meat (as real as I can get, anyways), thank you very much. Mass-produced, processed meat is... just wrong. But doing/seeing the actual dirty work of getting the meat, has never soured my tastes.
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Ah Eggie, you are but one of the few people who have seen what goes on there. Needless to say, the majority of people who eat meat have no idea what goes on at all, and I'm saying many people would be turned off if they did. I respect the fact that you have seen all that because that does not group you along with other hypocritical people of the nature (as I believe). Sorry if my words sound strong, I don't mean any harm or any "ranting" in anyway at all. Please feel free to contradict me at any time I'mopen to hearing other people's opinions.
 
QUOTE (xxanime_junkyxx @ Jan 25 2008, 01:39 PM) I'm sure once they walk into those meat processing plants and actually see what goes down there they will change their minds. If you guys want meat so bad, then go out into the forest and kill your own meat as I say. That's the way to do it. Sitting on the sidelines and watching other people kill and cut for you.....of course you'll support eating it because you don't see what happens behind the scenes.
You know, vegetables grow into earth, with all the earthworms, bugs and dirt you want. And they use manure as fertilizer.
Pretty disgusting.

Meat-processing is also quite disgusting in my opinion (yes, I know how it's done, although I don't enjoy it) but it doesn't mean it's immoral. I'd spend a week in a butchery rather than a day with a surgeon, and it doesn't mean surgery is bad.

Take also into account that we (by we, I mean I, I don't know your experiences) find that disgusting because we were raised far from this aspect of life.
My father was raised near a farm and has different reactions than mine. Just a part of the food cycle.
 
xxanime_junkyxx

I'm not saying more intelligent people are superior, your twisting my words! You can make this debate with any human being (provided you speak the same language) but you cannot with a animal. That's the difference in intelligence between animals and humans that I was trying to get across. Another important concept is humans are one of the only animals with self-awareness (to a limited extent chimps) and this what important.


QUOTE (Dalriada @ Jan 25 2008, 02:29 PM)QUOTE (xxanime_junkyxx @ Jan 25 2008, 01:39 PM) Take also into account that we (by we, I mean I, I don't know your experiences) find that disgusting because we were raised far from this aspect of life.
My father was raised near a farm and has different reactions than mine. Just a part of the food cycle.

I agree with you on that point I have seen animals get slaugtered first hand (even made friends with one before it got killed) and that doesn't stop me eating meat (doesn't say much about me, I know
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).
 
Okay, first of all, I respect people who are Vegetarians (although Vegans IMO are going a little overboard). Also, before I enter into the discussion, let it be known that I have hunted, gutted, skinned, plucked, and cooked various animals (fish, deer, quail, etc).

Personally, I eat meat (obviously from what I stated above) and I will always eat meat. I don't see anything wrong with it. Fact is that humans are genetically designed to eat meat.

Further, although many nutrients and proteins in meat can be found in plants, not all of them can. You can argue that there are vitamin pills or whatever to supply it, but my argument back is that it is true that the nutrients gained artificially are not nearly as effective or healthy as if they were naturally obtained (via eating meat). If you ate nothing but lettuce, and got all of your other proteins, nutrients, vitamins, etc via pills, you would NOT be nearly as healthy as me who eats both meat and fruits/vegetables in a stable and good diet.

I'll also pose this question to all of you who are vegetarians because of a view of unfair treatment of animals: Do you wear shoes? Are ANY of your shoes made of leather? How about shirts, pants, jackets and sweaters/etc? Any of them made of either leather or wool? Leather, wool, and many other materials are made via using animals and many times are obtained form the same animals which are then slaughtered and distributed to the consumer. That said, if you have anything made of leather, wool, or other such materials, then you are supporting an industry you claim to completely avoid.
Same goes for any of you who use drugs [medical], and other substances (some makeups, cleaning solutions, etc). Many of these products were tested on animals before being marketed to see if there were any ill-affects. They give them to the animal and see if it gets sick, if it dies, if it helps or does nothing. This is 'unfair treatment' of animals too. Have you ever used an aspirin?

I do not see anything wrong with eating animals, or using materials obtained through their slaughter (such as their skins). According to my religion, those animals were put on this earth for us to use - for everything ranging from friendship, labor, to materials and food.
If we didn't eat the sheep and instead let them roam in the wild, the mountain lion would eat it instead. The mountain lion *could* eat vegetables, but it didn't. If you are saying that animals are on the same level of humans, then shouldn't the animals be more respectful to the rest of animal kind? Hell, some animals even eat us.
 
Ah, dchaosblade you say some wise and prominent arguments. I have to admit, I own a pair of leather boots which I am in love with....hmmmmm....I perhaps am contradicting myself in that sense? Aside from that, there are certain things which are completely out of our control. For example, the clothing that we wear, I only wear wool or cotton, I know that wool comes from animals, but we are not killing the animal are we? Perhaps it is the fact that I am a treehugger and on top of that I have grown up in a religion in which eating meat is wrong. See in my system it is said that we are all meant to live together in harmony and respect what has been given to us.

Also, I can contradict your point on how eating meat is healthy. I must say, that in fact it has been proven that those individuals who eat large amounts of meat, have a very poor diet. Mainly because of the amount of chemicals put into the meat, secondly because who knows where and how those animals were raised (in terms of sanitation). Animals are also the number one cause of epidemics in large populations. Doctors actually advise eating small amounts of red meat because it is full of saturated fats. I am a vegetarian and I have to say my diet is much cleaner and healthier compared to those who eat meat because I eat natural food (organic), so I'm not taking in as many harmful toxins. In fact, many people convert to being vegetarians because of that sole reason. Why do you think there are so many alternative meat products coming out these days? Because the wide consumer base is now looking at the downfalls of meat consumption. Proteins can be obtained through many other sources. I eat lentils and chickpeas and beans and nuts and the such all the time. So diet-wise I would have to concur on that topic. Of course eating in quantity is good, but in my culture, I come from a looooong line of people who were pure vegetarians and they have very healthy lifestyles, and this goes back thousands of years ago. Lol, it was quite funny when you gave the example of eating, "lettuce" lol. I do eat burgers (veggie) and fries and ice cream and the such. I'm just saying, many vegetarians also have a normal diet, it's just that it's a common stereotype on how we are.

And I don't know any animals that might eat us particularly. We are in fact on top of the food chain. If we are eaten it is 99% of the time because we were mistaken for some other organism (for example sharks mistake divers as seals. They attack the diver thinking that, take a bite, but realize how bad it tastes and leave).

Ah, and monsta666, I did not mean to twist your words around. All I was saying was that just because we are more self-aware of our surroundings and the such, does make us superior intellectually, but physically humans are one of the weakest beings in the world. I'm just saying, that this does not make it a valid reason to eat meat (not that it's wrong, but I don't see this statement you're saying as a valid point to justify it).
 
Aha, so we've got some religious motivations going around here! I personally used to be in Mr. Chaos's shoes, in that my religious beliefs stipulated that animals were soulless being made solely for our personal use, whether it be milk, eggs, meat, or leather.

But after "kicking the religious bucket" well, a large portion of my ethical backing for meat-eating went away too. I don't think meat-eating is really wrong, though, we are omnivorous, after all, but methinks I'll go vegetarian on the world once I can afford the lifestyle.

Eating meat is good for you, if it's good quality meat, and if you eat it in moderation. You've got to be careful with a vegetarian diet, humans need their nutrients, after all!

But yeah, I see a gradual shift towards vegetarianism as a good thing, though I don't really concern myself much with things like that.
 
QUOTE (xxanime_junkyxx @ Jan 25 2008, 06:07 PM) For example, the clothing that we wear, I only wear wool or cotton, I know that wool comes from animals, but we are not killing the animal are we?
Actually, in many of those cases, the sheep that are used for cotton are later slaughtered and thus we have lamb-chops and so on~ So yes, those sheep are then killed and eaten.


QUOTE (xxanime_junkyxx @ Jan 25 2008, 06:07 PM)Also, I can contradict your point on how eating meat is healthy. I must say, that in fact it has been proven that those individuals who eat large amounts of meat, have a very poor diet. Mainly because of the amount of chemicals put into the meat, secondly because who knows where and how those animals were raised (in terms of sanitation).
In my example, I said in comparison to me who eats both meat and fruits/vegetables in a stable and good diet. Yes, if you eat nothing but meat it is unhealthy, but having bacon, eggs, toast, and a couple of waffles for breakfast, Pasta w/ a salad for lunch, and salad, soup, steak, baked potato, and some broccoli for dinner (plus some nice snacks like an apple/orange/banana, or other 'healthy' snacks) is a healthy and balanced diet in a day.


QUOTE (xxanime_junkyxx @ Jan 25 2008, 06:07 PM)Mainly because of the amount of chemicals put into the meat, secondly because who knows where and how those animals were raised (in terms of sanitation).
First of all, you can buy meat that doesn't have all the chemical sh*t in it too, just like you can buy fruits/veggies without it. If your gonna say that meat has chemicals in it and thats unhealthy, then don't compare it to organic foodstuffs and instead compare it to the mainstream which has it's fair share of chemicals and crap too.
Second of all, who knows where and how those plants were grown? What chemicals were sprayed on them, what animals nibbled at them and took a dump on them, what bugs crawled on and threw them, etc. Again, not a fair comparison.


QUOTE (xxanime_junkyxx @ Jan 25 2008, 06:07 PM)Lol, it was quite funny when you gave the example of eating, "lettuce" lol.
I was only making the point that, if you use supplements to obtain the nutrients you would normally get from meat, you will not be as healthy as someone who gains those nutrients naturally (via eating meat). For lettuce, feel free to fill in all of the stuff that a vegetarian would normally eat.


QUOTE (xxanime_junkyxx @ Jan 25 2008, 06:07 PM)I do eat burgers (veggie) and fries and ice cream and the such.
Just thought I'd throw out there that if you eat ice cream, most ice creams are made using dairy products. Further, if you eat anything with bread or most cakes and other deserts, they often use eggs and milk at the least. So unless you make your own bread, ice cream, cake etc, it's quite likely that you are eating things made from dairy products and 'animal resources' (like eggs). Just thought I'd throw that into the things (leather, wool, etc) that you may use without realizing how you support the industry you don't like.


QUOTE (xxanime_junkyxx @ Jan 25 2008, 06:07 PM)And I don't know any animals that might eat us particularly. We are in fact on top of the food chain. If we are eaten it is 99% of the time because we were mistaken for some other organism (for example sharks mistake divers as seals. They attack the diver thinking that, take a bite, but realize how bad it tastes and leave).
First, as for sharks, that is sometimes the case, however it also sometimes happens because the person is bleeding in the water, which attracts them and puts them into a feeding frenzy regardless of what you are~
Second, there are maneaters out there. In Africa, there are many places that are very dangerous due to the lions which are known for their tendencies to hunt humans. The same is the case of some tigers and panthers. Also, if you look into the smaller world, there are many insects that love to take a bit out of people - including a fair few that will literally eat a person (some ants will swarm and bite you - their venom is strong enough to kill, especially when there are that many - and after you are nice and dead they have a feast~).


I have more points, but for now I thought I'd settle to replying to your reply~

Edit: Why aren't the quotes working? o.o
Edit2: NVM, reloaded the page and it started working again. Go figure.
 
Ahhh, ok, well lets see,

QUOTE Actually, in many of those cases, the sheep that are used for cotton are later slaughtered and thus we have lamb-chops and so on~ So yes, those sheep are then killed and eaten.
I'm talking about wearing the clothing, I'm not going around and eating the friggin animal afterwards lol. The sheep being killed after is none of my concern because as a consumer, I only paid for the material, anything afterwards happening is out of my control.


QUOTE In my example, I said in comparison to me who eats both meat and fruits/vegetables in a stable and good diet. Yes, if you eat nothing but meat it is unhealthy, but having bacon, eggs, toast, and a couple of waffles for breakfast, Pasta w/ a salad for lunch, and salad, soup, steak, baked potato, and some broccoli for dinner (plus some nice snacks like an apple/orange/banana, or other 'healthy' snacks) is a healthy and balanced diet in a day.
It has been proven that vegetarians are healthier than those people who eat meat. I can find countless arguments to support that.
-Increased risk of fatal prostate cancer for men who consume meat, cheese, eggs and milk daily vs. sparingly or not at all: 3.6 times.
-Average U.S. man's risk of death from heart attack: 50 percent
Risk of average U.S. man who eats no meat: 15 percent
Risk of average U.S. man who eats no meat, dairy or eggs: 4 percent
-Amount you reduce risk of heart attack if you reduce consumption by 50 percent: 45 percent
Amount you reduce risk if you eliminate meat, dairy and eggs from your diet: 90 percent
-Percentage of U.S. mother's milk containing significant levels of DDT: 99
Percentage of U.S. vegetarian mother's milk containing significant levels of DDT: 8
Contamination of breast milk, due to chlorinated hydrocarbon pesticides in animal products, found in meat-eating mothers vs. non-meat eating mothers: 35 times higher

.....TA DAAAAA, that's to name a few.

Here's another great example:
Athlete to win Ironman Triathlon more than twice: Dave Scott (6 time winner)
Food choice of Dave Scott: Vegetarian
Largest meat eater that ever lived: Tyrannosaurus Rex (Where is he today?)


Healthwise, being a vegetarian vs. being a meat eater is redundant, it's obvious who's the winner in that case.


QUOTE Just thought I'd throw out there that if you eat ice cream, most ice creams are made using dairy products. Further, if you eat anything with bread or most cakes and other deserts, they often use eggs and milk at the least. So unless you make your own bread, ice cream, cake etc, it's quite likely that you are eating things made from dairy products and 'animal resources' (like eggs). Just thought I'd throw that into the things (leather, wool, etc) that you may use without realizing how you support the industry you don't like.
I never said I was vegan. I'm a vegetarian...I eat eggs as well (I don't consider as a full grown animal/being as of yet). My belief is that eating any animal that is living, breathing and feels immense pain as it is dying, I cannot bear to possibly eat it. Justification? There is none. It is due to my moral and ethical belief. I cannot possibly eat meat after imagining the pain that animal has gone through and how it was processed, it is my personal opinion in a sense. Even I could say more as well, but we both have very different opinions on the same matter. To each their own, I have no objection to what you are saying, it is your own personal belief.
 
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