Gender Roles

Split from the Haruhi Suzumiya thread.

QUOTE (warita200 @ Dec 09 2006, 01:29 AM) As for japanese woman taking the inniciative in Japan, thats true. It is actually customary that GIRLS give presents to boys and not the other way around. That is probably so, because japanese society has a strong masculine dominance, women are only to serve men, and therefore also gain the guys attention. It is also customary, that women in Japan serve the drinks, unlike in wetern society, where the man should pour the drink for the lady.

When I think about it, it makes me happy to live in Europe, hihihihi
Which is exactly why men love Japanese females so much, since they are rare breed that different from the general females which think "Guys are supposed to slave for gals in anyway they could, or they have no gentlemen manner/backbone"

The difference in culture is really something. One time, someone that I know was having dinner with a Japanese female friend (just normal friends). He served the rice and give it to the Japanese lady (which is pretty normal given that non-Japanese people consider it's a gentleman's duty to serve the ladies). The Japanese lady started crying all of a sudden and he asked her what is the matter...and she reply "no man has ever served me rice before". So basically she was just so moved...to the point of tears bursting out.

If you pay close attention when watching anime, you would notice it's ALWAYS female character giving the 2nd serving of the rice, while the male characters has to remain sitted.

maybe I am old fashioned, but I think it is more logical for men to serve the ladies and not the other way around. And I dont say this because I am female myself or because it is customary in our society. I just think it is more right this way. Please dont get me wrong, I dont like the idea of somebody playing the slave for some other person, but I think it is nice, when the guy gives attention or simply shows he cares. I think it is the female mentality to crave for attention and presents make them really happy. Guys dont really care that much..... so in my opinion it is more logical for guys to give presents to girls.... and serve a drink (even though I am perfectly fine with pouring my drink myself!).

and as for japanese man liking the japanese females so much for their inability to voice their opinion and their submissive nature.... I think this is very sad and I sure hope this aspect changes soon. Women are sweet and caring creatures (on averige) and they deserve to be treated with respect!!!

I understand what you are saying, and I agree guys should be gentlemen and be nice to the ladies. But I'm trying to say there are lots of females (I'm not saying all) taking it for granted as if it is the responsibility for guys to do that, thus they see it as it is quite the reasonable thing for guys to do and simply don't know to appreciate them. Their preception is that "Guys are obligated to serve me (since I'm a lady they are guys), if they ever disagree/argue with me, it's not my fault nor am I wrong, it's just them not being the gentlemen they should be". I guess what I'm trying to say is that guys being nice to ladies should be something they do out of their own free will, but not something that is forced upon them. Also most certainly it is not an excuse for that type of self-centred women to exercise their selfishness.

No offense to the general female, I'm just stating there are females that think like that, which is really unfair to men. Women are not the only ones want to be appreciated, men do too.


P.S. Before people get the wrong idea, we are not 'arguing' here, we are just 'discussing' the issue sensibly. And mods please don't tell us to do it over the pm, as it is a discussion which involve more opinions from more people is better. I'm awared that we are going a little off-topic...if the discussion get much longer than just a few posts, may be we would start a separate thread for discussing this. Sorry about that.

I have to disagree slightly with warita .... because I don't see men always serving the ladies. Maybe when it comes to alcohol, but don't the women generally still serve the meals or tea? If you look back in European history I'm sure it probably followed the Japanese model to some extent because European society was also male dominated. And wouldn't only the wealthy classes have the concept of "gentlemen" and "ladies"?

I know in my family personally, it would be the female getting the second serving, etc, and we're definitely not Asian, so where would that custom come from?

QUOTE (chiisai_hana @ Dec 09 2006, 10:33 AM) I have to disagree slightly with warita .... because I don't see men always serving the ladies. Maybe when it comes to alcohol, but don't the women generally still serve the meals or tea? If you look back in European history I'm sure it probably followed the Japanese model to some extent because European society was also male dominated. And wouldn't only the wealthy classes have the concept of "gentlemen" and "ladies"?

I know in my family personally, it would be the female getting the second serving, etc, and we're definitely not Asian, so where would that custom come from?
well, we were talking about the drinks only (or I was) and as for the drinks, it is good manners for the man to open the bottle and serve the drink. With food it is different, but if I can voice my own opinion on this, as long as everybody has 2 healthy hands, he/she should get his/her food and drinks him/herself, I am not much of an etiquette person.

Otherwise I dont expect the guy to open doors for me or to invite me to eat every week, but when dating a guy, I do expect him to pay the bill. NOW, before you say anything, I never order anything expensive, usually I am very happy with a slice of pizza or popcorn (at the movies)..... so it is not like I am taking advantage of the poor guy.
Nothing turns me off more, than some subtle hints on sharing the bill (of course it also depends on the financial situation, if he is really poor, I share the bill)...... but I really dislike to pay for my slice of pizza on a date, I feel like the guy doesnt even care enough for me to spend 3 bucks on a slice of pizza. I guess I am old fashioned.

when it comes to serving, the way i was brought up is teh person closest to the container of requested item passes it to the person who requested it. then that person serves themselves. not that i personlly don;t like being served, but it does cut out the "how much do they want?" question.

as far as the whole dating thing goes, men nowadays are getting the short end of the stick. after decades of wanting to be treated equally as males (fair enough), but they still expect us to be the ones to pay for dinner, tickets, transport, etc. this used to make sense in that it showed them that you were financially able to take care of them (rememver folks, dating was originally and often still is a way to see if they would make a good mate). the converse side being that women would do, well, "womanly" things (ie: make meals for you, sew you something). however, i don't know if anyone's noticed, but I seem to have more cooking experience than most of the girls i know, and the same goes for sewing (if not more so), i can at least stitch something up with a tear in it.

so that leaves us with 1) men expected to do the "chivelrous" things we have for ages, but 2) women just have to enjoy the ride, and if are treated as equals (ie: expected to pay their share/half of the bill) they get all upity.

not that i mind paying the bill, opening doors, etc, it's what im used to. they just have to upheld their end of things too. or at least try! can't cook/sew? try anyway, the intent and effort matters more than the outcome.

Is this thread referring to who gets served food first or who serves who? Or is it generally about what roles males and females play in a marriage?

In my opinion, it should be equal for both genders. I don't even expect my wife to cook for me or serve me. Frankly, I'd be doing to serving to her. I wont be a slave though, it should be equal to both genders. But its very common for thw sife to serve the husband since most women are stay at home moms. But thats changing, more women are going into the workforce each year, so basically, both partners have to fend fore themselves.

I really dont care who should serve who or if the man or women should do that first. It really is up to you. I just think both geners should play an equal role. But sadly, that isnt so in most cultures and society.

I myself can cook very well and I love to cook for my boyfriend/family. When living in a houshold together, I usually take over 80% the chores, my boyfriend only has to take care of the dishes, because thats something I really hate.

But back to the presents or paying the bill. Yes I agree with you, that it is questionable nowadays whether to pay the bill or not, after all, times changed.

But let us not forget, that to hold the door open or to pay 3-5$ for a meal isnt so much of a burden and it shows you care. Or take the real purpose of a present..... it is not really the present itself, but more the idea behind it. A present means: I care for you, I remebered you, I wanted to make you smile.... that is the message a present carries.
And the same goes for paying a bill..... if the guy is reluctant to pay 3 bucks for a pizza, it sure makes me think. Because, times may have changed, yes, but it is still customary for the guy to take care of the bill. So he not only ignores good manners but also shows stinginess. It makes me think, that if he behaves like this during the dating phase (when most ppl give their best to impress the object of their desire), what will be later on? A woman wants to feel desired and valued and it may sound materialistic to some degree, but little things like presents or attention in form of good manners helps a lot. It is stupid to think that just because women are emancipated now, guys can drop all the good manners.
I love to receive presents. It lies in the feminine nature..... we want to be reassuered that we are being desired and loved, we want to hear the 3 magic words!!!

Please dont misunderstand me. This is a take-and-give situation. If you give the girl your attention, you pay the bill and she doesnt give anything back, than ditch her, she doesnt deserve you, as simple as that!!!!!

This is very situational. But as far as im concerned, I try to not over do it in the dating phase, i will pay bills of eating out, why cuz i dont drive <.< but even if i did, id pay the bill anyways. as for every other little thing, i try to avoid "serving" the girl, tho i end up doing it anyways, and forget i was doing it, this is mainly to avoid "impressing" the girl, cuz to me thats not acting like how u feel about the other person, and showing them when u really WANT to do things for them. If i really care about them, i go extra miles for them, if they dont seem to like me much, and or i dont think its going to work out, im not going to go any extra length, tho this may lead to relationships not working, i feel its a more REAL and non FAKE way to go about dating.

as for after deciding if they are a person i want to be with, then i end up doing everything for them, cuz i rather be the person serving them. idk why but i like it better when guys serve the girls, but i dont like it when a guy does so, only to avoid either, getting dumpped, or to avoid ppl saying, ur guy you do it!

i dont like it when girls cook/sew as was said above. kinda urks me, and upsets me if they feel the need to. and i feel it should not be common or uncommon for a guy to do extra things. if 1 or the other does so, do it ONLY because thats to show how much u care, this goes for saying "i love you" dont hate ur date if they cant say it yet, and guys, dont say it (as a lie) just to make them not be angry. otherwise this will only lead to more serious problems!

also last thing about this, off topic, is it just me, or does no one ever WAIT before asking some1 out? most ppl say, ooh hot looking "gender here" and ask or try to get the other to ask them out, rather then just try and see how well they can get along 1st? w/o a date. me i see if we can be friends 1st, then ill start asking them to dates. but ok w/e, back to subject!

Doesn't it depend on the people in the relationship and typically the relationship you're seeking? I mean, like said, there are a lot of people who expect girls to give presents to guys and for women to serve the food, but at the same time, guys tend to be the ones that are expected to be the knights in shining armor. They're the ones that stand in front when there's danger, etc.

I agree with Inuyasha though; both genders should play an equal role when it comes to serving and so forth.

My two cents: I recently read an article about men who are not totally "He-man" (typically what you would describe as 'masculine', loves athletics, likes to fix things, pretty much paternal) were also liberated during the feminist's movement to be nurturing and into handicrafts if they wished to be (though I think feminist's went a bit too far thinking every man has a 'sensitive' side. )

I think tradition and 'progressive' attitude clash alot; there is no right or wrong here. There are people who are selfish on both sides of the story, no matter the gender, ethnicity, age, or sexual orientation. People have to find out for themselves what they want, whether they want to be a stay-at-home mom or dad and raise kids, have to work to support the family, or work as much as your spouse to make ends meet, kids or no. It's a matter of taste I think, and less to do with which role is better or worse. I'm just glad I have the freedom as a woman to choose if I want to share the bill, pay it, or be treated; likewise men have the freedom to choose the same. I often share the bill not because I'm stingy, but because I'm completely broke and don't feel like burdening anyone financially (college student who lives off-campus, owns a used car, and a needy, abandoned doggy here); several "just" 5 dollar meals can add up to a bill being paid or a full tank of gas (this month it was only 20$ for electricity, go me saving money in wintertime! ). I'm not in debt because of how I manage my money. *shrug* I suppose it is stinginess.

This whoole "guys should not serve girls", "guys is not a slave"...... sounds somehow totally wrong, because it is usually the other way around. It is the girl who does the house chores, cooks the food and the guy doesnt move a finger. It maybe that in the beginning (during the dating time) he does some things for the girl, but once they go steady or even live in the same house, the patter changes 180 degrees. The guy watches his football match, doesnt help at all in the house and cant even get his own beer out of the fridge. OK; this is sort of a klichee picture, but I have experienced it quite a few times in my live, so I can say, it fits the reality. Not the guys are serving girls, but girls are serving guys. My point is, if you have the feeling you must serve the girl when dating her, dont complain, it is a good investition, oncre you go steady, she will be serving you, right?

QUOTE (warita200 @ Dec 14 2006, 01:54 AM) This whoole "guys should not serve girls", "guys is not a slave"...... sounds somehow totally wrong, because it is usually the other way around. It is the girl who does the house chores, cooks the food and the guy doesnt move a finger. It maybe that in the beginning (during the dating time) he does some things for the girl, but once they go steady or even live in the same house, the patter changes 180 degrees. The guy watches his football match, doesnt help at all in the house and cant even get his own beer out of the fridge. OK; this is sort of a klichee picture, but I have experienced it quite a few times in my live, so I can say, it fits the reality. Not the guys are serving girls, but girls are serving guys. My point is, if you have the feeling you must serve the girl when dating her, dont complain, it is a good investition, oncre you go steady, she will be serving you, right?
I have to disagree with the perception of "guys just sit on their lazy arses and do nothing after going steady/living together". Although it might be true that it's the women doing the house chores, but the guys have to deal with stuffs like all the D.I.Y. stuffs, do the heavy liftings, carry excessive shoppings for their girlfriend, sorting out the bills, fixing or taking the car for fixing should it have problem etc...so it's more about 'sharing responsibilities' than just women one-sided serving the guys, which if quite fair I think (and not all guys watch football and ask their girl to fetch them beer and do nothing...warita200 if all the guys you dated were as bad as you said, all I can say is I'm ashamed for those guys and you deserve better than that). I think at the end of the day, it doesn't really matter who is serving who, but the important thing is they feel appreciated when doing things for their partner.

What I was trying to get at was during dating phase, guys tend to be at a disadvantage because they wouldn't really expect the woman to do much for them, while on the hand, as I mentioned before...some women (I repeat...SOME, not ALL), see guys being nice to them and serve them as a minimal responsibity as being a guy and therefore there's no need to appreciate for it.
The point I'm trying to make is it is fine for guys serving the ladies, but the ladies should show reasonable appreciation in return at the very least say 'thank you' when the guys do things for them...afterall, it is not guys' obligation to serve them, but an act of good will.

Anyway, I was hoping to get some opinions on the following remark;

"It is much more difficult for a guy who is poor to get or hold on to a girlfriend, than a woman who is poor to get or hold on to a boyfriend."

What do you guys and gals think about this?

QUOTE (Marine-RX179 @ Dec 14 2006, 02:22 AM)

"It is much more difficult for a guy who is poor to get or hold on to a girlfriend, than a woman who is poor to get or hold on to a boyfriend."

What do you guys and gals think about this?
it is very much true. in near all societies, the trend by far is for women to marry up the social ladder, and men to marry down. since dating is all in all a precurser to marriage, there would be little difference.

not only this, but as discribed above, men ARE excpeted to be financially able to support their prospective mate, this is one of the things 'dating' is meant to show. for a woman, they don;t need to have money to do the things they are expected to do, but for men...well, that's a good chunck of what's expected of us. that and killing spiders.

Marine..... interesting notion, because half of the stuff you mentioned guys supposedly do, such as sorting the bills and carrying heavy stuff is womens responsibility. I have never seen a guy to go shopping by himself, it is rather the picture of the women, tired like hell from work, barely standing on her feet, going home at 5 pm with two heavy shopping bags that pops into my mind. Besides, to carry a shopping bag from time to time or to take the car to the mechanics once in half a year is nothing compared to the workload a woman has to bear EVERY DAY.

I am getting off the "dating issue".... I know, but when I think of the workload a married woman has, it makes me want to cry. In my country women work as hard as men do, but they earn less. And after work they cant relax like their husbands do, they have to go shopping (in my country women dont have cars!!!), pick up the kids from kindergarden, clean the house, cook the food and help the kids with the homework. What does their husband do? Watch TV and complain about how tired he is........ so dont tell me about the guys hard work in the household, because that is just ridiculous! Once steady or married, guys dont do anything to help out, that is the sad truth. A man has 1 job, woman has 3!!!

warita sounds like in your country women really are getting the short end of the straw...

In Japan, after marriage men are supposed to be the one providing for the family, while the women should only need to stay home and do house chores and take care of the kids. It is somewhat considered a shame for men needing to have their wife work in Japan (not unless it's the wife's interest to continue working).

I think good couples should share responsibilities accordingly. It does not really matter who does what, as long as both parties are ok with it and are doing their part in contribution. If there are something that either side not satisfy with or not happy about, they should have the right to express how they feel, may they be a man or a woman. I myself believe that if people really love their partner, they shouldn't let them carry the burdens on their own. But nowsday, with the men that women come across being lazy, and the women that men come across being self-centred, it all seem so hopeless and quite honestly I'm not even really sure is a good idea to get into a relationship...life might be much more simpler remaining single...

I guess one of the reasons why we all love anime and manga so much is because those worlds (and the guys and girls) are always much more ideal and they provide us comfort to look away from the harsh reality...

QUOTE (warita200 @ Dec 14 2006, 05:18 AM)it is rather the picture of the women, tired like hell from work, barely standing on her feet, going home at 5 pm with two heavy shopping bags that pops into my mind. Besides, to carry a shopping bag from time to time or to take the car to the mechanics once in half a year is nothing compared to the workload a woman has to bear EVERY DAY. I think we are suffering from a generalization problem here. The fact is, gender relationship are very different depending on the culture.

If I read the last 3 or 4 posts, I see a lot of "in my country" description. The fact is, it is not because it is happening in one place that it is happening everywhere and its not because it is not happening one place that it is not happening elsewhere. There is also the problem that no one seems to explain which country they refer to when saying "in my country". It is impossible to have an intelligent discussion if we don't know what you are referring to.

===

Now onto the subject. We have to make large distinctions between the various aspect of gender equality. There are places where there discrimination and laws that promote gender defined roles and there are places where only social culture promotes such roles. For instance, the "women are less paid than men" argument has two separate issues.

1- Two people doing the same job, one is a man, the other a woman, is the woman paid the same? This is usually referred to pay equality.
2- Jobs that are traditionally held by women are less paid than traditional men jobs. This is called pay equity.

Number 1 is, in my view, totally un-acceptable.
Number 2 is more complex. The problem is has long as there is nothing preventing women from doing the job they want (and in most places that talk about pay equity, there is no such limit), why are there women who choose that "low paid" profession? Usually, it is because there is something attracting those people to that job. And surprisingly, there is no lack of candidate for that job, lots of people want it even if some would say it is under-paid. Why is that? If it was so under paid, there would be no-one wanting to do it.

As for family life and roles in the house, stereotypes are dangerous. I know that here (that would be Quebec), women are not expected to take care of chores and such. Some do and some don't. It is a choice they make. One thing to keep in mind, the goal is equality. Equality does not mean to be the same. After all, men and women are different (both physically and mentally).

I would like to finish this by stating a very important thing. Gender roles and equality is extremely important. Yet it is complex and not to be over simplified. Most important of all, it must not be turned into a "women against men" fight. It is not the case. Of course this depends on the culture, but in most places I know, there are many men supporting equality. Yet they don't want to themselves feel like they been ripped off.

idk how every relationship is, but i can only go by my parents, and my friends, and personally, all but ONE male friend i have, imo, treats his GF propperly as far as im concerned.

all the guys, always bitch about how thier GF or wife should be doing house work (these are also girls who have jobs and pay bills btw)

male friend 1" why arnt the dishes done?"
female friend 1" i forgot to do them, if u need a dish go wash it, i have to go to work"
male friend 1" your the F*cking girl, you do the d*mn dishes"

me at this point, am ready to f*cking punch the *sshole and i take her to work, and tell him to stf.

and its not much different with most guys i know. theres plenty of guys who arnt that way, but the over all bum/redneck population which sure seems to out number the nice groups of ppl, are very much like thier stereotyped stories.

[MODERATOR's NOTE: please do not use abbreviations when posting. It can make it hard for many to understand what you are saying, specially for those whose first language is not English.]

I think it's more about how the individual was brought up in his own family. For example if a guy's parents the father always sit on his arse and let his mother do all the house chores, it would make him think it is acceptable for him to do the same. But for example in my case, I have always been taught to 'take care of my own mess', so that's what I will do and I wouldn't expect my partner to do it for me, unless it's sharing responsibility and I am doing something for her in return. Nonetheless, my partner shouldn't be expecting me to take care of her mess, unless it's really something that she cannot take care of by herself. I'm would be ok with my partner depending on me, but that doesn't mean she should dump everything (including things she can take care of by herself) on to me neither.

QUOTE (Blair Pendragon @ Dec 14 2006, 10:23 AM) all the guys, always bitch about how thier GF or wife should be doing house work (these are also girls who have jobs and pay bills btw)

male friend 1" why arnt the dishes done?"
female friend 1" i forgot to do them, if u need a dish go wash it, i have to go to work"
male friend 1" your the F*cking girl, you do the d*mn dishes"

then tell your female friend to find a new Boyfriend. women say that there are no 'nice guys' to be had, but all i can say is you're not looking very hard. that, or it's the fact that women really want someone who fits the stereotypical male model, since even though they say and may even think they want a "kind, hardworking, supportive, intelligent" mate, that isn't really what they initially subconciously look for in a man. so while you're dating Mr. Jackass, Mr. Right respects your decission (even though he doesn't agree with it) to date then marry Mr. Jackass.


anyway, getting back to the original thought of the thread, i know for me at least, if a girl liked me, the most effective way to get me would be to latch on (literally even) and not let go. as im a pretty easy going guy (yes, people who work with me for the first time think im high) so as long as they want to be around me, I won't have a problem with it. I think it's like how foxes mate; The male goes off, secures a territory, then pretty much hangs out. the next season, the females go and find a place they like and just sort of move in. male has the option of being like "...get the hell out," but that's pretty rare.

putting that into human persective, it's like the guys go get a good job and secure themselves, then the women find a guy who matches their character type of preference and has aquired said good job and security, then SHE asks him out. because in the end, most guys arn't to selective about their mates, as long as the mate is willing/wants to stay with them, and is of reasonable health.