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Can a democracy make the wrong choice


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Poll: Can a democracy make the wrong choice (0 member(s) have cast votes)

Can a democracy make the wrong choice

  1. Yes (65 votes [92.86%])

    Percentage of vote: 92.86%

  2. No (5 votes [7.14%])

    Percentage of vote: 7.14%

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#21 scar_ishbalan

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Posted 25 June 2006 - 03:04 AM

QUOTE (Anime-Addict @ Jun 24 2006, 09:45 PM)
You see, our policy is surgical strikes, Fast, move in move out and clean up after. No civilan casualties. This is costing us a continual slow loss of personell, who are my friends and colleages.

awww that´s so cute from USA, considering they´re invading their country and all...

My opinion: Democracy has some mayor flaws, cause the prole often dont know what is better for them. But no democracy is better than other, if a country makes a mistake is THEIR mistake, USA and allies are not saying "my democracy is better than yours" more like they saying to people in palestine "Its a shame you choose the Hammas ´cause if you´re not my friend youre my enemy"

I understand USA is the "empire" right now, but it kinda angers me they´re such hypocrits, giving "freedom" and "democracy" to all the world, but true speaks itself, Afganistan, Venezuela, korea, etc.

Man!! i didn´t want to reply this topic as i really hate the policy of I atack you, i kill you, but i´m the good boy right?? RIGHT??
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#22 sk7

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Posted 25 June 2006 - 03:26 AM

QUOTE
Everyone is entitled to opinions. But there is a way to argue with somone. If I were to call you a moron and and tell you that you don't know what you are talking about and should remian silent. You would probably feel ofended and you would be right. You would also like it better if I had stayed polite.

The container of the message is has important has the message itself.

Of course there is. However, etiquette and rights are two different things. A person has a right to be rude, even if they should not exercise that right.

QUOTE
Not charity. That money is humanitarian aid. It is radically different than charity. Humanitarian aid is a form of international transfer that are protected under UN agreements and regognized by most countries. Humanitarian aid is also something organized at the level of organizations.

Charity is something involving individuals and your local environment. When you give money to the homeless shelter of your neighboorhood, it i charity. When the goverment sends an un-employed person a social security check, it is a social transfer. When the red cross goes in after a disaster to help people, it is humanitarian aids. Don't mix them, since the rules that apply to them are different.

Umm...you do realize that when I said charity, I meant "the act of giving without expecting payment in return." I was not referring to charity in terms of an organization.

QUOTE
But if someone has a responsibility to creating a situation, deciding to witholding promised help, is rather hard to justify, ethicly speaking.

Furthermore, we are not talking about future help not planned for. We are talking about help that was promised and that those people were counting on.

An everyday life example would be if you get a job and you are told you will be paid 20$ an hour. If when you receive your pay, it was only 10$ an hour, you can have big trouble because you spent while counting on that money to come in. When it does not, you are in even bigger trouble than if you knew from the start that you would be paid 10$ an hour.


I would say it's more like your mom suddenly not giving you an allowance anymore even though you have to buy your own groceries, but that's just nitpicking.

Once again, I'd say that the U.S. has the right to do this, it just isn't the nicest thing to do. I see where the U.S. government is coming from though. To me, the only fair solution would be to give them the money on the condition that the U.S. can keep tabs on its use.

#23 chiisai_hana

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Posted 25 June 2006 - 12:43 PM

Question: every country in the UN is required to provide foreign aid, aren't they? As in, they budget a percentage of the country's money to funding humanitarian relief.
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#24 Bold

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Posted 25 June 2006 - 01:16 PM

QUOTE (chiisai_hana @ Jun 25 2006, 10:26 AM)
Question: every country in the UN is required to provide foreign aid, aren't they? As in, they budget a percentage of the country's money to funding humanitarian relief.

Nope, the UN has no legal power over its member nations.

Each country is free to send what ever they want in humantarian aid, There is a percentage of the GPA that is recommended, but it is up to each country to decide if they want to send that amount, less or more.
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#25 mohammed2006

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Posted 25 June 2006 - 01:25 PM

i think democracy shouldn't be like what it is because they are asking every one about a cause and most of them don't know anything about it so i think democracy must be asking the people who knows very will about the case so democracy wont give a wrong answer like some thing called "shoora" and "shoora" is asking all the people who knows very very will about the cause a take the answer from the majority

QUOTE
The answer to the question is a definite no. Each country has sovereignty has recognized under the UN treaties. That sovereignty can only be ignored in cases where there are crimes against humanities or atrocities being committed by a countries government. It was far from the case here. So no one has any business telling the Palestinian people they did not choose correctly, except other Palestinians.

BUT, it would not be very wise to finance terrorist groups or even military actions. If a country wants to go to war, it should do so with its own money and not ask the international community to finance them!

But there were other solutions than simply with-holding the money until the Hammas recognized Israel and agreed to not take any military actions. For instance, the money could have been granted with conditions. Having observers going over to guaranty the money sent was being used for its purpose : helping the people rebuild and feed themselves.

By simply withholding the money, the message sent is that their democracy is not as good as westerns ones. Furthermore, it is creating a situation where people are suffering BECAUSE of a decision take in a far away places. So it is creating a condition that can only result in more trouble in the future.


if you was a Palestinian you wont say like that because if some one game and take your country you'll prefare to die than recognizing him

QUOTE
- Well, I think humans -no matter how “democratic” they can be- are able to make wrong decisions.

agree


#26 noob

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Posted 25 June 2006 - 03:55 PM

QUOTE (Anime-Addict @ Jun 24 2006, 09:45 PM)
I beg to differ - If we just bombed the shit out of people, and infliced massive civilan casultys like you seem to think we do, i would not se sitting in Afganistsan tying this reply to you. I would be back with my wife and daughter.

You see, our policy is surgical strikes, Fast, move in move out and clean up after. No civilan casualties. This is costing us a continual slow loss of personell, who are my friends and colleages.

And pont of fact - Choppers cannot mount bombs, therfore they cannot bomb.

I think I was referring to Israel's policy thank you very much.

http://www.commondre...s03/1210-12.htm

^^ accidents.... yup... must be an accident...

http://www.cbc.ca/st...aths020418.html

explain this to me, if you cannot differ a "CANADIAN BASE from a TERRORIST BASE" / "Canadian forces from Terrorist forces", then how are you to differ "An afghani village full of civilians from a village full of terrorists" / "an Afghani terrorist from a Afghani civilian"

Choppers, may not be able to "mount bombs" but they can carry some missiles. I've heard this somewhere long time ago, "There are choppers which can carry WMD" Is that true? Even if it is not, that does not deny the fact, choppers can carry and shoot missile. Which by the way, "may" kill civilians.



Going back toward the topic:

First, let me start this with a google search. yeppie deppie doo... www.google.ca ---> weapons ---> look at the 5th website.



ah yes, the discussion topic... yes yes... lets blame US a little more... This whole Israel vs Palestine thing was initially created by British. If you're to blame USA for the creation of Israel or rather the Jews vs Muslims vs Christian conflict in the "Palestine or Israel territories" we must, first blame Nazi Germany, for that they slaughtered Jews and made them run away from the homeland they lived in for many years. Then British government, promising one land to two different groups. Wait a minute, wasn't Britian the country to support Israel's existance? Yeah, later on US did help Israel in many ways, but if it wasn't because of Britian, nothing like this would have happened.

@ neutrality, I respect your opinion. I agree with most of your post and response. THe only thing I couldn't agree with was,
QUOTE
Also if the Palestinian government do decide to recognizw Israel, there is a good possibility that money will start to flow again.


yeah... i must say, although that is possible, we should not rely on it. If we're to trust a government things like this should not have any effect on our decisions. So what if they did recognize Israel as a country? It does not change the fact, most Palestines probably hate the Israeli government. In fact, I know many people and countries who hate Israeli government. But that, does not, in any form or shape would mean that they'd hate the Israeli's as well. You see, not all Israeli's are Jews. Some are Christians and some others are Muslims and so on.



Side notes:
Israel should not belong to Muslims or Jew's alone. It belongs to many religions therefore it must not be ruled by one or two government. They should make Jerusalem (the capital city of Israel) something like Antartica.

QUOTE
How smart is that majority of population? By and large not very, because the people either follow the leaders in the community who have their own agendas or trust whatever the electees say.


QUOTE
first of all, there's a 3rd option, which is really frequent: if you're unhappy with your current government, you vote in someone else. that's one of the perks in democracy -- you have the chance to change who represents you so often that at some point the choice will be a good one!

on the other hand, who are we to say the palestinians are dumb? are they politically dumber than the rest of the world? do we know better than themselves what's best for them??


^^ agreed. Just because they're third world country, that does not mean they're dumber the first world countries. You may have to change your opinion about other human beings.

QUOTE
Answer to question: Yes, it is quite possible for a country to tell another country what's right and what's wrong. There is simply always a way. For America for instance, it can tell Palestine that we are more experienced with Democracy


Yup... America has the "best" democracy ever!!... You do realize that... erm... even the DEAD people VOTED for Bush in some states? Yeah dude, ZOMBIES CAN VOTE TOO!! Except that, we do not know whether they walked in and voted or their "representatives" did the voting for them.

Democracy in USA pwns. rolleyes.gif


QUOTE
What I want to say is some time democracy is not suitable for some other country especially if they have so many problems example like Iraq… democracy kill their civilian everyday… I’m not supporting that saddam.. but before that I can see their people in my TV channel do everything, their child go to school, shopping, working… but now only bomb explode everywhere and that country become terrorist habitat… even US cannot handle it any more…


Cannot handle democracy? That may be true, but that also depends on how you define democracy. It does not really matter who you support or do not. Any type of government has the potentials to kill/slaughter civilians or even terrorists, either one of whom I consider human beings. If the government was functioning as proper as it should. Then terrorists would have never existed in the first place. So, I think their government is imprefect, not that there are any prefect government out there yet.



QUOTE

As for Afganistan, I would harly call any soldier there a killer! Actually, the sad truth is that soldiers are always the one taking the blame for mis-steps and accidents when the responsibility belongs to the person who sent them there. Because accidents are bound to happend (on both sides, civialian and military). There are some nasty people out there and its hard to identify them!

But I think we are drifting from the main topic. Soldier are not responsible for an accident unless it was clearly a deliberate act (hence not an accident!!). The more questionnable part is why none of the people in charge (who are usally sitting very FAR from any bullets or explosives) thought of the reactions of the local people when the inevitable accident happend?


I'd call any human who dares to fire upon the other human a killer. What are you thinking of "Humans" ?? Are you saying we do not hold the power of choosing for ourselves what is right and what is wrong? That is not correct my friend.

It is true that soldiers do not have any other choice but to obey their higher ranked officer whom get their orders from either a higher ranked officer or politicians. But, that does not change the fact that they're the ones to execute the orders. Human beings understand one another because we're humans. There always is a way to end something peacefully.


QUOTE
awww that´s so cute from USA, considering they´re invading their country and all...

My opinion: Democracy has some mayor flaws, cause the prole often dont know what is better for them. But no democracy is better than other, if a country makes a mistake is THEIR mistake, USA and allies are not saying "my democracy is better than yours" more like they saying to people in palestine "Its a shame you choose the Hammas ´cause if you´re not my friend youre my enemy"

I understand USA is the "empire" right now, but it kinda angers me they´re such hypocrits, giving "freedom" and "democracy" to all the world, but true speaks itself, Afganistan, Venezuela, korea, etc.

Man!! i didn´t want to reply this topic as i really hate the policy of I atack you, i kill you, but i´m the good boy right?? RIGHT??



LAWL. Indeed it is cute... yeah... you're a good boy. Now, don't attack me or my country. LAWL... good stuff.


QUOTE
Once again, I'd say that the U.S. has the right to do this, it just isn't the nicest thing to do. I see where the U.S. government is coming from though. To me, the only fair solution would be to give them the money on the condition that the U.S. can keep tabs on its use.


I'd have to agree, any government may choose to help another government or not.

QUOTE
Nope, the UN has no legal power over its member nations.

Each country is free to send what ever they want in humantarian aid, There is a percentage of the GPA that is recommended, but it is up to each country to decide if they want to send that amount, less or more.


Are you sure? Because I thought there was this thing that each country, as a member of UN must pay to UN for being a member of UN. I could be wrong though.

Having said that, that does not neccessarily mean they all should pay equally. I believe UN sets some requirements for each country and country pays it annually.

QUOTE
if you was a Palestinian you wont say like that because if some one game and take your country you'll prefare to die than recognizing him


Though I love and respect Palestinians. This whole discussion of country and land is not the greatest excuse not to recognize a country. You see, Jews, long before the birth of christ LIVED in the place called Palestine (not the new one but the old one). So, really, your reasons are not good enough. Just not good enough. If I was to defend Palestinian's opinion, I'd use examples such as the incidents occuring in the land of Israel. All those murders... which, by the way looked more like an ethnic cleansing than anything else... lol... It's funny how people forget about innocents dying and discuss such matters as land.

LAND, my friend is INDEED important, but it is not MORE important than a LIFE of a HUMAN BEING! Land is supposed to help humans to LIVE, not to DIE. >_>

Does anyone in this discussion board remember ANYTHING from the tragedy that took place in Jerusalem? What am I saying, it's not like there has been only one tragedy within the city of Jerusalem.... I'm talking about in which, Israeli's slaughtered masses... yeah that one... I'll find it a link for it, as soon as i did, i will edit this post.

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#27 Konohamaru

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Posted 25 June 2006 - 08:43 PM

QUOTE
(Anime-Addict @ Jun 24 2006, 09:45 PM)
I beg to differ - If we just bombed the shit out of people, and infliced massive civilan casultys like you seem to think we do, i would not se sitting in Afganistsan tying this reply to you. I would be back with my wife and daughter.


Man I feel for you ... The best of luck out there and may you return home safe. Afghanistan has the potential to become a livable country soon. Unlike Irak, they have a good leader in Hamid Karzai, there is a stronger national unity and there are no major oil fields to quarrel over. If only the situation wouldn't be such a mess in Irak, because I think that it influences Taliban insurgency.

QUOTE

http://www.commondre...s03/1210-12.htm

^^ accidents.... yup... must be an accident...


I cannot think of a reason why they would have done it on purpouse, so yeah, I think it may be called an accident. Or rather 'involuntary homicide'. But that is theory. The country is under civil war - you cannot try every soldier out there.

QUOTE

http://www.cbc.ca/st...aths020418.html

explain this to me, if you cannot differ a "CANADIAN BASE from a TERRORIST BASE" / "Canadian forces from Terrorist forces", then how are you to differ "An afghani village full of civilians from a village full of terrorists" / "an Afghani terrorist from a Afghani civilian"
... ...
Choppers, may not be able to "mount bombs" but they can carry some missiles. I've heard this somewhere long time ago, "There are choppers which can carry WMD" Is that true? Even if it is not, that does not deny the fact, choppers can carry and shoot missile. Which by the way, "may" kill civilians.


Haha - you know, if the americans had a choice they would send in Ares, the god of War and Athena the godess of Wisdom and Justice. There would be no civilian deaths, no miliary casualties, only those who deserve to die would get killed. Unfortunately they only have american troops as cannon fodder ... unexperienced men and women that are afraid to die, like you and me.

So yeah, if the army generals took the opportunity and invested in some deadly weaponry like planes and missiles, of course they would use those instead of sending private ryan. The problem is the war itself not the means you use to wage it.


QUOTE

@ neutrality, I respect your opinion. I agree with most of your post and response. THe only thing I couldn't agree with was,
QUOTE

Also if the Palestinian government do decide to recognize Israel, there is a good possibility that money will start to flow again.



yeah... i must say, although that is possible, we should not rely on it. If we're to trust a government things like this should not have any effect on our decisions. So what if they did recognize Israel as a country? It does not change the fact, most Palestines probably hate the Israeli government. In fact, I know many people and countries who hate Israeli government. But that, does not, in any form or shape would mean that they'd hate the Israeli's as well. You see, not all Israeli's are Jews. Some are Christians and some others are Muslims and so on.


And not all Jews are hateful. And hate doesn't give you any righteousness. Understanding does.

QUOTE

Side notes:
Israel should not belong to Muslims or Jew's alone. It belongs to many religions therefore it must not be ruled by one or two government. They should make Jerusalem (the capital city of Israel) something like Antartica.


??? Antarctica is a frozen desolate land. People can barely live in there, and with the ozone layer depletion, it's bound to become even worse. Owning that land doesn't mean much, since the costs of exploitation are enormous. I sincerely hope Jerusalem doesn't become something like that.


QUOTE
QUOTE

Answer to question: Yes, it is quite possible for a country to tell another country what's right and what's wrong. There is simply always a way. For America for instance, it can tell Palestine that we are more experienced with Democracy


Yup... America has the "best" democracy ever!!... You do realize that... erm... even the DEAD people VOTED for Bush in some states? Yeah dude, ZOMBIES CAN VOTE TOO!! Except that, we do not know whether they walked in and voted or their "representatives" did the voting for them.

Democracy in USA pwns. rolleyes.gif


US democracy is very old and has stood many trials. Wether it has been enhanced or trampled by the Bush administration for 6 years now, it's a whole debate. It's not something to be settled over some vote theft incident. Things a lot more serious happen in democratic countries all over the world.

This being said, "democracy vs. oppressive regimes" is just a poor excuse the US use every time they (forcefully) defend their interests abroad. Their dictating and manipulating citizens of other countries is a shameful and obnoxious tactics. It has been done through covert action during the cold war. Now they're doing it openly. It's outrageous, but only american citizens can do something about it sad.gif

QUOTE

What I want to say is some time democracy is not suitable for some other country especially if they have so many problems example like Iraq… democracy kill their civilian everyday… I’m not supporting that saddam.. but before that I can see their people in my TV channel do everything, their child go to school, shopping, working… but now only bomb explode everywhere and that country become terrorist habitat… even US cannot handle it any more…


US have done many stupid things in Irak. It has started with american marines tolerating looting in the wake of the invasion. (Or maybe it has started with the invasion ! Or maybe it has started before that, with the air strikes !! Or even before, with the cruel embargo !!! Or even before with the CIA aiding Saddam in the war against Iran ... ) Anyway, IF the decision to invade irak was just, IF - I say - even then US administaration have commmited HUGE mistakes in managing the country.

I don't think you have enough elements to say that "democracy is not suitable for Irak" just from the comparison between the Saddam regime and the current chaos.
And it's definitely not democracy that is killing those civilians.

QUOTE

Cannot handle democracy? That may be true, but that also depends on how you define democracy. It does not really matter who you support or do not. Any type of government has the potentials to kill/slaughter civilians or even terrorists, either one of whom I consider human beings. If the government was functioning as proper as it should, then terrorists would have never existed in the first place. So, I think their government is imprefect, not that there are any prefect government out there yet.


I agree entirely.

QUOTE

I'd call any human who dares to fire upon the other human a killer. What are you thinking of "Humans" ?? Are you saying we do not hold the power of choosing for ourselves what is right and what is wrong? That is not correct my friend.

It is true that soldiers do not have any other choice but to obey their higher ranked officer whom get their orders from either a higher ranked officer or politicians. But, that does not change the fact that they're the ones to execute the orders. Human beings understand one another because we're humans. There always is a way to end something peacefully.


He may be saying that you do not hold the wisdom to chose for yourselves etc. etc.
By the way, is he really your friend or you call him that just out of condescendence ? :mad:

Nope, it's not true - we don't always have a choice. Human beings are weak by nature: nobody can deny regretting some choice he/she has made in their life already ! Generally madmen and fools are those who have immutable convictions.
Humans will call other humans "terrorists" or "jews" or "barbarians" or "negroes" or something else just because they don't suffer killing other fellow humans. So they make it easy for themselves. Once you have denied the humanity in someone you can easily go and slaughter them, then sleep and have nice dreams.

But I agree with you - if people find a way to communicate, then they start to establish trust and up from a certain point it becomes impossible for someone to kill the other; then it becomes difficult to hurt them, then you learn to live with them. Talking to each other is the key, so we can understand each other.

QUOTE

Though I love and respect Palestinians. This whole discussion of country and land is not the greatest excuse not to recognize a country. You see, Jews, long before the birth of christ LIVED in the place called Palestine (not the new one but the old one). So, really, your reasons are not good enough. Just not good enough. If I was to defend Palestinian's opinion, I'd use examples such as the incidents occuring in the land of Israel. All those murders... which, by the way looked more like an ethnic cleansing than anything else... lol... It's funny how people forget about innocents dying and discuss such matters as land.

LAND, my friend is INDEED important, but it is not MORE important than a LIFE of a HUMAN BEING! Land is supposed to help humans to LIVE, not to DIE. >_>


Yes, that's what I think too. Because I happen to have a place to live in. Ask those in refugee camps though ... Ask those who live in shelters after a catastrophe... Land means a home to live in. It also means resources: water, wood, plants, animals, oil.
Depending on the value they put on those, people consider land under very different perspectives.

#28 noob

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Posted 26 June 2006 - 12:12 AM

QUOTE (Konohamaru @ Jun 25 2006, 04:26 PM)

Man I feel for you ... The best of luck out there and may you return home safe. Afghanistan has the potential to become a livable country soon. Unlike Irak, they have a good leader in Hamid Karzai, there is a stronger national unity and there are no major oil fields to quarrel over. If only the situation wouldn't be such a mess in Irak, because I think that it influences Taliban insurgency.



I cannot think of a reason why they would have done it on purpouse, so yeah, I think it may be called an accident. Or rather 'involuntary homicide'. But that is theory. The country is under civil war - you cannot try every soldier out there.



Haha - you know, if the americans had a choice they would send in Ares, the god of War and Athena the godess of Wisdom and Justice. There would be no civilian deaths, no miliary casualties, only those who deserve to die would get killed. Unfortunately they only have american troops as cannon fodder ... unexperienced men and women that are afraid to die, like you and me.

So yeah, if the army generals took the opportunity and invested in some deadly weaponry like planes and missiles, of course they would use those instead of sending private ryan. The problem is the war itself not the means you use to wage it.





yeah... i must say, although that is possible, we should not rely on it. If we're to trust a government things like this should not have any effect on our decisions. So what if they did recognize Israel as a country? It does not change the fact, most Palestines probably hate the Israeli government. In fact, I know many people and countries who hate Israeli government. But that, does not, in any form or shape would mean that they'd hate the Israeli's as well. You see, not all Israeli's are Jews. Some are Christians and some others are Muslims and so on.
[/QUOTE]

And not all Jews are hateful. And hate doesn't give you any righteousness. Understanding does.



??? Antarctica is a frozen desolate land. People can barely live in there, and with the ozone layer depletion, it's bound to become even worse. Owning that land doesn't mean much, since the costs of exploitation are enormous. I sincerely hope Jerusalem doesn't become something like that.




Yup... America has the "best" democracy ever!!... You do realize that... erm... even the DEAD people VOTED for Bush in some states? Yeah dude, ZOMBIES CAN VOTE TOO!! Except that, we do not know whether they walked in and voted or their "representatives" did the voting for them.

Democracy in USA pwns. rolleyes.gif
[/QUOTE]

US democracy is very old and has stood many trials. Wether it has been enhanced or trampled by the Bush administration for 6 years now, it's a whole debate. It's not something to be settled over some vote theft incident. Things a lot more serious happen in democratic countries all over the world.

This being said, "democracy vs. oppressive regimes" is just a poor excuse the US use every time they (forcefully) defend their interests abroad. Their dictating and manipulating citizens of other countries is a shameful and obnoxious tactics. It has been done through covert action during the cold war. Now they're doing it openly. It's outrageous, but only american citizens can do something about it sad.gif



US have done many stupid things in Irak. It has started with american marines tolerating looting in the wake of the invasion. (Or maybe it has started with the invasion ! Or maybe it has started before that, with the air strikes !! Or even before, with the cruel embargo !!! Or even before with the CIA aiding Saddam in the war against Iran ... ) Anyway, IF the decision to invade irak was just, IF - I say - even then US administaration have commmited HUGE mistakes in managing the country.

I don't think you have enough elements to say that "democracy is not suitable for Irak" just from the comparison between the Saddam regime and the current chaos.
And it's definitely not democracy that is killing those civilians.



I agree entirely.



He may be saying that you do not hold the wisdom to chose for yourselves etc. etc.
By the way, is he really your friend or you call him that just out of condescendence ? :mad:

Nope, it's not true - we don't always have a choice. Human beings are weak by nature: nobody can deny regretting some choice he/she has made in their life already ! Generally madmen and fools are those who have immutable convictions.
Humans will call other humans "terrorists" or "jews" or "barbarians" or "negroes" or something else just because they don't suffer killing other fellow humans. So they make it easy for themselves. Once you have denied the humanity in someone you can easily go and slaughter them, then sleep and have nice dreams.

But I agree with you - if people find a way to communicate, then they start to establish trust and up from a certain point it becomes impossible for someone to kill the other; then it becomes difficult to hurt them, then you learn to live with them. Talking to each other is the key, so we can understand each other.



Yes, that's what I think too. Because I happen to have a place to live in. Ask those in refugee camps though ... Ask those who live in shelters after a catastrophe... Land means a home to live in. It also means resources: water, wood, plants, animals, oil.
Depending on the value they put on those, people consider land under very different perspectives.

-Not that people are not living in that country. If there wasn't anyone living in that country, then it wouldn't have been called a country. Thank you for your kind words though. But I believe you meant "It has the potentials to improve for the good." Uh... Yeah I believe it does so just like any other country, again thank you for sharing your opinion. About this whole messy situation in Iraq, that you speak of. May I recommend you to google this situation up a bit? You may surprise yourself with the things you find there. It is not Iraqi's fault that foreign soldiers decide to beat the hell out of them. Have you ever thought, why would they attack American and British bases in the first place? Yeah... think about it a bit more. This leader that you speak of, no, more like the admired president of Afghanistan that is, isn't that strong. He's just a puppet controlled by Americans and Afghan warlords. He literally possesses no whatsoever power against his minister of defence. One of his generals, who was very close to him and always seemed to support Karzai was assassinated EASILY by the underlings of the minister of defence. Strong? Give me a break. I mean, if we were talking about the last few weeks of the last Czar of Russia, I'd believe you. I'd believe he had some power. But this man, has no power at all. He can't even end his own life let alone controlling a country.




-Accident? Are you insane? Those airplanes make the slightest mistakes. Even if they were mistakes, they should be punished. Can you imagine losing your entire family by a mistake?

-Civil war?? Dude, you need to make an appointment with your doctor. And while you're waiting at the doctor's office, define "civil war" on a piece of paper then come here and share it with us. Least, share it with me. I'd love to know what exactly do you have in mind when you say "Civil war"


-Dude, how is civilian's experience toward war relates to an AMERICAN airplane opening fire upon its ally? WHAT are YOU thinking?

-True, they're saving up personel by using missiles and bombs. I'm not against that, I'm aganist using weapons of mass destruction. You do understand that, WEAPONS of MASS DESTRUCTION kill any living creature within it's range? That'd include civilians, animals and even ally forces. Are you saying they have the right to do their scientific experiements on humans in the name of Justice and Democracy covered up with the name of terrorisim and accidents or rather war? Open your eyes, things are not going the way you think they are.

-Generals take the opportunities to use technology to destroy their armed enemies right? Hence why they are given things like UAV's to detect human being's presence and what not. They are also capable of doing lots and lots more than you can possibily think of. So there is no reason for them to make "mistakes" like that. If their technology is not capable of distinguishing enemies from allies, then it is not worth a cent.


-Antarctica is not just a piece of frozen land. It may mean nothing to YOU, but it means EVERYTHING to me and likes of me. It is the last piece of land, which's resources have not been touched.




-I'm just gonna leave the US democracy alone, that's a different matter than this and I am not really that interested in US to criticize them. I'll just say, American government is just not worth my time.



"human beings are weak by nature" why does this sentence remind me of... this other quote "Humans are weak and evil by nature. They're selfish, evil, ... by nature..." ??? Argh I don't know...

Moving on, yes we become buddies and pals when it comes down to typing up a huge post.


-Lol, oh yes, I almost forgot. Human beings always always always hold the power to choose what they'd like to do. For instanct, this is a real life example so listen up, and it is a part of reality. I have finals day after tomorrow. They're finals and finals in this province worth a lot, yeah something about 50% of your total mark. Now, that's a lot ain't it? But I'm not studying, not that I have already studied or anything, I just don't feel like it. That, is something that I choose to do, not that I am forced to do. This, may result in various consequences involving my and others' lives, yes I, still do hold the power to make a difference.

-It is, those madmen whom I admire theeee most. Do you know who Galileo is? He, is one of those whom I admire. Galileo was once considered to be a fool or rather a madman. Just because he believed in Heliocentrism. And I'd rather be a madman than a murderer who murders people wrongfully in the name of justice without any rational reasons.


-It is always nice to know there are some people out there who believe they can justify their actions by things like that. Just because they are a little different than YOU are, that does not make them any less human. Killing another human being is NOT easy at all. Nice dreams? What are you thinking? Even Nazi's were having nightmares after killing that many Jews. Saying a human is not human is irrational and can only be bought by irrational ones.


-Find a way to communicate? Aren't you a little late. We've been able to talk to one another since a long time ago. Some just haven't realized HOW to COMMUNICATE. Well, can't blame them, after all the propaganda they've been fed. They don't really know what's right and what's wrong anymore. Yes, communicating is the only way, but before that there are things that one must understand before it communicates with another.



-I agree with the last part of your post. Yes, land, using economic terminologies, can be defined as resources, although it may mean everything to one, it may not actually worth one's life for it. Once you're dead, you don't live in any land but the land of the dead which you, absolutely will, never ever OWN. For some land may mean something depending on its value. Now, if we are talking about financial values, it is not worth one's life. But if we're talking about spiritual values. Then it may mean something. But not usually enough for one to sacrifice its life for the land.

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#29 chiisai_hana

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Posted 26 June 2006 - 01:14 AM

QUOTE (noob @ Jun 25 2006, 12:38 PM)
Are you sure? Because I thought there was this thing that each country, as a member of UN must pay to UN for being a member of UN. I could be wrong though.

I believe they do pay, but if you don't pay ... there's really no way to enforce it. I remember hearing something about the US no longer paying their UN dues or something ... but unless you want to take them to war over it ... well, they just don't pay.

So from what I gather, the UN has guidelines of what to give for humanitarian aid, and each member should pay an annual due, but like Bold said, they have no legal power to make a country do any of this.
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#30 noob

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Posted 26 June 2006 - 02:00 AM

QUOTE (chiisai_hana @ Jun 25 2006, 08:57 PM)
I believe they do pay, but if you don't pay ... there's really no way to enforce it. I remember hearing something about the US no longer paying their UN dues or something ... but unless you want to take them to war over it ... well, they just don't pay.

So from what I gather, the UN has guidelines of what to give for humanitarian aid, and each member should pay an annual due, but like Bold said, they have no legal power to make a country do any of this.

What you said is partly right. US does owe UN and they will have to pay UN at some points. I'm not sure what will happen if they don't... War against US? lol.... biggrin.gif

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#31 mohammed2006

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Posted 26 June 2006 - 04:58 AM

us = un

un =bont= us

#32 Bold

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Posted 26 June 2006 - 09:55 PM

QUOTE (chiisai_hana @ Jun 25 2006, 10:57 PM)
I believe they do pay, but if you don't pay ... there's really no way to enforce it. I remember hearing something about the US no longer paying their UN dues or something ... but unless you want to take them to war over it ... well, they just don't pay.

hmmm, did my last post go un-noticed? Maybe it was too small compared to what I usally do ...



QUOTE
us = un
This is really FAR from the truth and it is important that people understand this. The UN are NOT a kind of super state above the countries goverments. They do not have legal powers, no army, etc.

Some people mistakenly call the blue helmet UN troops the UN army. They are not. Those soldiers are lended by their countries to the UN for a specific operation. Same goes for all the equipement used, wheter it be a tank or a truck.

Concerning the US, they have a lot of power at the security council due to their veto. Meaning they can stop any resolution by themselves (same goes for Russia, China and I also belive England, but not sure about this last one). But the US cannot make a resolution pass by themselves. But they can, using other political means, force the hand and try to make other go their way. It works, as long has they don't anger the others with veto powers.

The same is true for the general UN assembly. Only it is easier to pressure small countries than it is to do with the bigger ones that are usally on the security councel.

Finally, the UN can only enforce something somewhere with the concent of the local goverments. They are not the police of the world. Beside, there are many other aspects to the UN. I am sure all of you know UNICEF (the little orange box for poor children at Halloween) and many other less knowed outfits. Like world health organisation (helping to prevent diseases from spreading).

So please do not make a generallization that the UN is the US. This would anger many people sitting on the UN.
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#33 noob

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Posted 26 June 2006 - 11:04 PM

QUOTE (Bold @ Jun 26 2006, 05:38 PM)
hmmm, did my last post go un-noticed? Maybe it was too small compared to what I usally do ...



This is really FAR from the truth and it is important that people understand this. The UN are NOT a kind of super state above the countries goverments. They do not have legal powers, no army, etc.

Some people mistakenly call the blue helmet UN troops the UN army. They are not. Those soldiers are lended by their countries to the UN for a specific operation. Same goes for all the equipement used, wheter it be a tank or a truck.

Concerning the US, they have a lot of power at the security council due to their veto. Meaning they can stop any resolution by themselves (same goes for Russia, China and I also belive England, but not sure about this last one). But the US cannot make a resolution pass by themselves. But they can, using other political means, force the hand and try to make other go their way. It works, as long has they don't anger the others with veto powers.

The same is true for the general UN assembly. Only it is easier to pressure small countries than it is to do with the bigger ones that are usally on the security councel.

Finally, the UN can only enforce something somewhere with the concent of the local goverments. They are not the police of the world. Beside, there are many other aspects to the UN. I am sure all of you know UNICEF (the little orange box for poor children at Halloween) and many other less knowed outfits. Like world health organisation (helping to prevent diseases from spreading).

So please do not make a generallization that the UN is the US. This would anger many people sitting on the UN.

No, it did not go unnoticed, it was just that I thought otherwise.

The power of veto is given to United States of America, Russia (old USSR), China, United Kingdom (UK/ Britian) and France. And I don't see where you all are going with the concept of United Nations is United States. They may seem similar to one another but they're not.

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#34 scar_ishbalan

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Posted 26 June 2006 - 11:41 PM

QUOTE (Bold @ Jun 26 2006, 05:38 PM)
This is really FAR from the truth and it is important that people understand this. The UN are NOT a kind of super state above the countries goverments. They do not have legal powers, no army, etc.

Maybe he was trying to say that UN are just a puppet of US... if that´s the case i agree
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#35 Bold

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Posted 27 June 2006 - 01:14 AM

QUOTE (scar_ishbalan @ Jun 26 2006, 09:24 PM)
Maybe he was trying to say that UN are just a puppet of US... if that´s the case i agree
That is exactly how I read mohammed2006's post.

And I disagree. It all depends on the specific situation. Has noob mentionned, United States of America, Russia, China, UK and France each have veto at the security councils. Apart from the UK, the others are not exactly admiarers of the US and they won't hesitate to oppose them. Like for the Irak war.

The question is what are the possibilities. You certainly can't do economical sanctions against the US since they will most likely oppose their veto to it! Military power? The US certainly cannot take on the whole world, military speaking (speacilly right now with their erssources streatched thin). But does anyone really want a major conflict that would turn out in the 3rd world war? I certainly don't think anyone wants the world to do some major killing to try and resolve some other killings! Beside, for whatever wrongs the US may have, it certainly does not justify a war.

But in some situations, I do agree that the US, considering their rather heavy political leverage, can "twist the arm" of many other smaller countries and make things go favorable for them.

But let's ot generalize and make huge calls that the UN is simply a puppet.
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#36 noob

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Posted 27 June 2006 - 01:25 AM

Well, my point is, suppose UN is a puppet. So what does that relate to this matter? I can make some assumptions, but I can't always run around in circles and make assumptions. Relate your comments to the discussion topic people. Relate it so we can understand what you're trying to say, or least try to find out what your point is. ps, you're to make your posts about a page and half long and support it with details and evidence. Read the rules posted in the first page.

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#37 chiisai_hana

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Posted 28 June 2006 - 12:19 AM

Getting back to the original topic ... Isreal is on the move ... and has, or hasn't, Hamma agreed to recgonize them?
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#38 hamasusuke

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Posted 28 June 2006 - 01:40 AM

woops. i almost mistakened Hamma for my name biggrin.gif ....

i thought Hamma already did? unless there was a swift change. from hasn't.
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#39 chiisai_hana

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Posted 28 June 2006 - 02:11 AM

The news is confusing ... one channel will say they've signed an agreement, the other says they haven't, and I no longer am trying to keep up with the situation wacko.gif
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#40 MindKry

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Posted 28 June 2006 - 02:16 AM

I'm surprised to find this kind of thread here, I just registered today and wasn't expecting this.

But here we go... I'm into journalism and economics... So I'll share my opinion.


"Can a democracy make the wrong choice?"

Most definitly yes, will they make the wrong choice? I think that mainly depends on what their choices are. If you look at the 2000 election in the US, it was a choice bettween Gore and Bush, and due to some political scandalizing the Florida vote was manipulated and Bush got in. This is not a typical case, the vote was THAT close that something that small made a HUGE difference. Everyone HATED Bush, then September 11th happened and the rest went down in history.

The following election bettween John Kerry and Bush... Well, we know how it turned out. But how did it turn out that way? Let's take a look...

Many people were clamouring before the elections, the presidents popularity was a joke, his so called mission accomplished for the Iraqi war was a hoax in most peoples mind. No one expected him to get into office...

... And he won? Well take a look at the issues that swayed the vote.

Iraqi war, many felt that arbitrarily taking their troops out would have seemed like a hit and run. Kerry was for a gradual withdrawl, Bush was agains't. Majority of American's wanted to keep fighting the terrorist threat because a Osama tape just so happened to be leaked to the press just before the election.

Bush also started stressing the importance of keeping the definition of a marriage as a union bettween a man and a woman. This sealed the South vote...

More issues were discussed but the debates and the overall election went down as a circus as expected. But wasn't as bad as the canadian election to come up...

We've had three elections in the last 3 years? Maybe 2... I can't remember. First we voted Liberal, and I guess we voted wrong because within a year or slightly after another election was called be ause the Liberal government was incompetant... So we voted liberal again... But it was a minority government this time... See...

The Canadian system has 5 major political parties, but all parties recieved under 50% of the vote. So the Liberals and Conservatives made alliances with the other parties... (basicly they made 5 political parties 3... Two major parties and a minor party the NDP)...

Then there was another vote because the Liberals went and made the public mad again with the Gomery report. Then the conservatives got in... And we've been on the fast track to hell ever since.



I think we could make some smart decisions as a collective. If only our minds weren't so focused on the things we see on TV, the ads... Etc. We might actually notice a decent candidate. The problem is our choices...

We really don't have that many choices...In this "democracy" it's simply whoever can round the most votes. If you have alot of funding, you can make yourself seen especially when in one of the main political parties. Because no one believes in anyone else.

The biggest problem with this is we keep voting for only people who have lots and lots of money and not neccessarily the wits or the experiences or the nobility to lead people. Bush is a great example...

And because we keep voting for rich white men, we find more and more that the tax breaks for big corporations and the tax burdens of the impovershed increase substantialy. And the mind of the people are more focused on small insignificant issues then the bigger ones.

Front page on Msn.com today June 27th, 2006. "U.S flag burning law turned down". Which is a tragedy... You wouldn't imagine how many tears I'm gonna cry tonight.

But when the vote last week for increasing minimum wage was turned down. It was a fart in the wind... No one really noticed. But many many people should care... Poverty is becoming an INCREASING problem.

Luckily all the rich people in the government could probably care less... And the people who support them are probably so idle in thought with TV these days. That all they care about is that the president shouldn't support same sex unions. So it's okay guys...

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