School Shootings...

First, an article for those of you who have not heard of the tragic event that occured at North Illinois University (a University that two of my cousins - thankfully unhurt - attend): CNN article

Recently, school shootings have gone on an apparent increase, particularly at institutes of higher learning (colleges and universities). Recently, there was Columbine, Virginia Tech, and now North Illinois University. These are tragic events that we should all reflect one and do whatever it is you do to offer your condolences to those families affected.

Now, with North Illinois Universities shooting yesterday, I offer this question to you: What can be done to prevent these atrocious events from occurring? CAN anything be done?

Here at Georgia Tech, we've implemented a new notification system that contacts all students with an emergency allert via TXT msg, phone-call, e-mail, and on the website simultaneously if ever anything happened. But this will only protect those yet unaffected, not those in the middle of the gunfight. What can we do to prevent it from happening in the first place?

Some people are arguing for stronger gun laws. Others say that students should be allowed to carry concealed weapons for self-defense. Personally, I agree more with the later, simply because even if you made owning a gun completely illegal, people will still find a way to get their hands on one, and still kill - difference is that now you will be unable to protect yourself. Further, I believe that if someone really wanted to, they could probably take more lives with a knife or dagger which is smaller and much more silent than any gun.

I open the floor to all of you.

Gustav1976, allow me to introduce you to the rules of the Thoughtful Section.
QUOTE - Any opinion is fair game as long has you support it with arguments.
- Most of all, stay respectful of others people and their ideas, do not use abusive language and always support your arguments.
Saying "nuke America" - although a valid opinion - does not belong in the thoughtful section as a stand-alone statement, much less in this thread. I personally am offended by the fact that because of school shootings you say that all of "America" should be nuked.

Further, one line posts are frowned upon in the thoughtful section, even if they do have a valid opinion and support. Please try to make your posts actually contain something of meaning next time. Saying "I'll post later after I've thought of something" is not something of meaning.

QUOTE Some people are arguing for stronger gun laws. Others say that students should be allowed to carry concealed weapons for self-defense. Personally, I agree more with the later, simply because even if you made owning a gun completely illegal, people will still find a way to get their hands on one, and still kill - difference is that now you will be unable to protect yourself. Further, I believe that if someone really wanted to, they could probably take more lives with a knife or dagger which is smaller and much more silent than any gun.

A question is : why is it (seemingly) much more common in the USA than elsewhere in the western world (western world meaning here the countries with a level of wealth similar : Canada, Europe but also Japan, Australia, NZ...) ?
The answer isn't because in those countries, people have concealed weapons in school.

I'm not the most qualified to give answers (I'm not even American), but it seems Americans (awful generalisation here, I'm aware that Americans are not some kind of Zergs led by the Overlord) have a fascination for firearms that other countries haven't.
They are looked as one of the only ways to defend yourself, from almost everybody, including the government (I don't know how, but it's an argument I've heard).
So this sanctification of guns may explain why some people use it in such a way.

Another reason may also be the mediatisation around those tragedies.
You may remember that a national sport here is car-burning (not exactly, but it happens during riots or the new year).
We realized two things
-Saying exactly how many cars were burned introduce a game-side, with scores that you can compare.
-Do the media send journalists because people burn cars, or do people burn cars because the media send journalists?
Of course, in a mass-killing, it's almost mandatory to tell the number of casualties, so it gives no answer. It may give a little part of the reasons.

I just fear that once again, this is going to become a finger pointing game, like every other school shooting that has taken place to date. No one will really take the time to get to the true root of the cause, instead lame rhetoric like, 'oh noes, it was the violent video games, or the pornography, or they were picked on, or....'.. you get the idea. I'm sorry, but that's a simple, and pathetic cop out. I play PLENTY of violent video games, got picked on lots when I was younger, *fwap fwap fwap* is all I'm going to say about the other part, but I don't feel like shooting people. And I have anxiety, stress and coping issues amongst other things, but honestly I firmly believe that NOTHING truly drives these kids to do what they do than anything more simple than the fact that they want attention.

I agree with most of the points Dalriada makes. Guns are not the solution to solving your problems. I don't believe self-defence is truly effective after all most of these attacks happen quite suddenly. If self-defence was really effective in preventing hostile situations why does America have one of the highest rate of gun crime in the first world?

I believe a simple solution would be to turn universities into airports. People need to pass through metal detectors and no guns can be allowed school campus. If no one can have access to guns no one will be able to shoot each other. A dramatic solution to a difficult problem that is sure to be costly for the American people. I feel something dramatic needs to be done, otherwise my fear is this scenario will be repeated again.

even when takeing a considerable amount of time to prepare precausions, i simply doubt that it alone will be an effective/beneficial strategy.people have their ways to work around the system.but i dont know, really maybe security should be beefed up.
in america, people do in a sense hound guns, really, but not essentially for the reason that most people beilieve.some hunt, etc etc, but really i dont think im staying on topic.so ill get right on this.
Guns may not be a solution to solving problems, but most people feel secure that they can engage someone with equal force in order to avoid being caught off-guard or unprepared in situations like these school shootings.i think that it solely depends on the person who owns the gun, or has the gun and his intent with the weapon that is the dependent factor here.a concealed weapons permit is good and all, but some people lack self-control and as young kids, i doubt that colledge students will be able to control themselves.i think, if a concealed weapons permit is put into effect, or allowed, students will collectively fashion this right, to fit personal agenda's. in doing so you might be adding more fuel to the fire.who's to really know whether or not a person is going to own a gun for protecion, or for a personal vendetta that results in a homicidal rage with even more casualties.allowing more kids to own guns under the face of protection, leaves alot more at risk, than anymore to gain.
i agree with monsta, i beilieve security should be tottaly beefed up...the beefiest of the beefiest beef security.

QUOTE (overfiend1976 @ Feb 15 2008, 05:30 PM)I just fear that once again, this is going to become a finger pointing game, like every other school shooting that has taken place to date. No one will really take the time to get to the true root of the cause, instead lame rhetoric like, 'oh noes, it was the violent video games, or the pornography, or they were picked on, or....'.. you get the idea. I'm sorry, but that's a simple, and pathetic cop out. I play PLENTY of violent video games, got picked on lots when I was younger, *fwap fwap fwap* is all I'm going to say about the other part, but I don't feel like shooting people. And I have anxiety, stress and coping issues amongst other things, but honestly I firmly believe that NOTHING truly drives these kids to do what they do than anything more simple than the fact that they want attention.

overfiend, im not so sure that i agree with your assesment that they do it for attention, realistically speaking.killing people off , or killing people by itself is not motivated by/for attention, that barely touch's the surface.i, in a way, blame the media, blame people, and blame the people commiting these acts.I've talked about this in a group, or club, that my school had.it was "mens group" and i beilieve it depends on what kind of person your dealing with and what he feels he should do about certain things.these people feel as if they have nothing to lose and beilieve people should suffer.i agree though, that games are not essentially the reason thet people go out to kill another person.i mean, what drives a man who plays games, to kill a person?i dont think that enough motivation, maybe, a reference, but not a reason.
you've got people everywhere who cant deal anymore with the problems they beilieve they have, they blame other people, they have acess to a weapon and bam, its punishment times.i think thats what motivates these kids to do what they do.

I have to disagree with your disagreement. I don't feel these kids are getting guns and feeling like they can go out and kill people. Nothing of the sort. If you'd notice, all of these shootings end up in the shooters suicide. That is the final intent of what they are doing. Much research has been done showing that suicides and attempted suicides are almost always (for that age group), methods of getting attention/noticed. All they are doing by going out and killing people before killing themselves is drawing MORE attention to themselves. I'm simply following a chain of logic.

I do not think that stronger gun laws would help matters at all for several reasons.
1) Those who really want a gun will find non-legal ways of getting them
2) The problem is not really with the fact that guns exist but that we have no sure way of telling whether someone will use a gun approriately
Also there will be a great deal of protest regarding any gun laws due to the fact that many gun supporters will repeatedly go back to the Consitutuion decalring that all citizens have the right to bear arms.
Even if stricter gun laws were finally introduced there would also be a major problem enforcing them without violating many civil rights and remvoing some freedoms in all likelihood.
The main problem in my opinion is that humans by nature are an aggressive species, it's not something we're proud of but something we still don't like to admit.
Until we can learn to better control the aggressive side of our personalities nothing will really change as even with stricter gun laws etc people will still find a way to kill other people (it's somethinig we're ironically very good at:inventing new ways to kill each other)

I think what we really need is training and preparation in the form of drills.

Think about it schools have fire drills, tornado drills, earthquake drills and during the Cold War the famous duck and cover drill. Sadly colleges lack these. So why not teach people what to do it the event of a school shooting or other emergency?

The most prominent thing in place for a violent activity like a school shooting in my area is called a lock down when the teachers just lock the classroom door. What the Hell kind of safety precaution is that? I mean yeah in most cases locking the door and sitting tight is the best thing to do but why not take it a step further and add some realism? How about a "Hey kids! Lets barricade the doorway with desk and chairs." drill? A shotgun round and a stiff kick will open most doors. Its not going to stop a determined attacker.

Or what if your classroom is where the shooting starts? Whats the best way to evacuate in a hurry or disarm the attacker?

Also for the benefit of everyone here not from America I'll try and provide a brief view of Americas attitude towards firearms. Americans are divided into pro and anti gun camps we are 50/50 on the issue. Not everybody here loves guns. I myself like guns and support our individual liberty to own them. I feel a lot of people are afraid of guns without ever taking any steps to understand them. But this thread really doesn't need to devolve into "Those Yanks are out of control! I can't believe how violent they are owning all those guns. Their legislators should take them away." So I'll try and get back to school violence.

Everybody can snap. Its true. You, your best friend, your mother any of you could snap and kill the other with enough pressure. There is a reason these school shootings occur. Think how stressed out you yourself have gotten because of school. Textbook cost, doing poorly in a class, a professor from Hell. This stuff adds up and eventually some people are bound to snap and react violently.

I think our education system needs an overhaul to address some of the grievances against it. Its currently a large scheme to make money, the degree you receive can't even get you a job that your whole life you have been told the college educated tend to get. You have to go back or more education or an internship, you have to take classes with no relation to the field you want to go into. Fix some of this and I think these shootings will not happen as often. Combine that with training people what to do in the event of a shooting and when they do happen we will see less victims.

I will leave with this for those in favor a gun control. These attacks will happen regardless of firearms availability. A utility hatchet for yardwork or a common kitchen knife could be used to kill or injure a fair number of people before police could respond. You would be surprised at how far away a man armed with a knife can be and still be dangerous. 21 feet or 6.4 meters for those of you that use the metric system. Police officers can use lethal force on somebody armed with a melee weapon if they are within that range because of how quickly the distance can be closed.

QUOTE I do not think that stronger gun laws would help matters at all for several reasons.

Take into account that I didn't blame guns, but the gun culture in the US, which is quite different that the culture around firearms in other western countries (Say 'people should have a gun to protect themselves would' here and you'll be considered as a loon or as a extrem right-winger. Probably both).
And I don't mean firearms-hating countries. A fair number a western countries have numerous firearms (the most exemplar case being Switzerland, where you're supposed to keep the weapon you used during your military service).


QUOTE Also there will be a great deal of protest regarding any gun laws due to the fact that many gun supporters will repeatedly go back to the Consitutuion decalring that all citizens have the right to bear arms.

A constitution can be changed. It's an excuse, not a reason.


QUOTE The main problem in my opinion is that humans by nature are an aggressive species, it's not something we're proud of but something we still don't like to admit.

The frequency of those tragedies are quite specific to the USA (it happens elsewhere, but it's less common). So the human nature is a bad excuse.

I don't think Americans are very violent people, at least no more violent than other countries. I simply made the observation that countries which have outlawed guns to most citizens do not suffer from school shootings (at least nowhere near the scale of America). I admit people in Britain (can't say too much about other countries) can be pretty violent as well. People here can (and do) get drunk punch people or even stab them for the most trivial reasons (looking at a person the wrong could suffice) the main problem I have is if you give that same person a gun the potential damage they can do to is that much greater. Furthermore it is still possible to obtain guns in countries where guns are outlawed if one is determined enough so this argument about supply not making a affect to gun violence doesn't really roll with me.

If I pointed a gun on your face and said not to move what can you do for self-defence? Even if you had a gun in your pocket its not really going to make a difference I will shoot you before you get your gun out.

Well here's the thing:

First off, the guy that shot up NIU was taking medication for some sort of mental instability apparently. I went off the meds, began acting erratic, and then shot up his alma mater.

Background: I'm a student at U of I... which is where this guy went to grad school. My parent's live about 25 minutes from NIU, and so I have lots of friends who go to NIU, luckily none were injured either.


Yes, America does seem to have a gun culture, but I will vouch with smokie that its split 50/50 it seems. Half of the people seem to want guns for self defense, or for hunting. However one thing that has been mentioned before in American media is that all these people shooting up schools come from suburbia, where they are not raised with gun culture as much as a hunting family would be. I also know quite a few kids of hunting families, and they have a great respect for the power of a firearm.

I'm against guns honestly. It's a personal choice. I would love to see harsher bans put on guns. I don't have an answer for the school shootings, but I can guarantee that metal detectors wouldn't work as well as you think they would. First off, you'd just need to kill the metal detector guards, and when a suspect is armed with these semi-automatic rifles, well that doesn't seem as hard. Also, I believe I've heard of a type of non-metallic gun... well isn't that convenient?

I don't think think the gun problem in American schools will go away anytime soon. In an age of anonymity, with people known as their internet handles better than their real names, theres bound to be ways people bust out to catch attention. I also think due to a lack of proper gun control, and a general lack of gun respect is to account for this. But that's American culture.

If we banned guns, and people switched to knives... well there wouldn't be any school shootings! but there would definitely be school stabbings. I think we should say screw putting bans on guns, because it doesn't work. However, if we charge an arm and a leg for bullets... well I don't think those "kids" will be spraying down innocent students anymore. My apologies to the affected hunters.

QUOTE (monsta666 @ Feb 16 2008, 11:31 AM) If I pointed a gun on your face and said not to move what can you do for self-defence? Even if you had a gun in your pocket its not really going to make a difference I will shoot you before you get your gun out.
You can do a lot! If this is an attempt to rob you and when your hand goes into your pocket to get your wallet and you open fire with a small pistol into their chest cavity at contact distance instead you can consider the odds evened out a bit.

That said that isn't the situation we are dealing with in a school shooting. They are going to shoot you no matter what. But now chances are other people have heard. They will not be caught by surprise like you were. Hopefully this would give them a chance to take cover, draw a gun, take aim and return fire. You can't shoot two targets at once. The loss of a few could save many.

@Dalriada where are you from? Why would people think you are crazy for not having a right to protect yourself against potential violence?

Our constitution was set up to be difficult to change. It guarantees all of our rights. Many of us feel that if the government changes one part of it then what will stop them from changing other parts?

Human nature is still a valid excuse or do you disagree with the fact that everybody has a breaking point? For some people they might kill themselves. For others they choose to act in a different way. In these cases by attacking the target they feel is responsible for messing up their life.

@Headswabby there is no gun that can go through a metal detector. Not available to civilians anyways. Maybe the CIA or KGB made a few things but those are rare, expensive, and no private citizen even in gun friendly USA owns one. There are knives made of polymers that can go through metal detectors though and they are fairly common and inexpensive.

QUOTE (smokie @ Feb 16 2008, 12:17 PM) @Headswabby there is no gun that can go through a metal detector. Not available to civilians anyways. Maybe the CIA or KGB made a few things but those are rare, expensive, and no private citizen even in gun friendly USA owns one. There are knives made of polymers that can go through metal detectors though and they are fairly common and inexpensive.
I can't recall exactly where I heard about it, but it was apparently something very recently made. Yes, no private citizen would own one, but thats for the present. the unforeseeable future can hold many a surprises. The knife thing doesn't surprise me, but that further goes to show that metal detectors may not necessarily stop school violence.

QUOTE
Yes, America does seem to have a gun culture, but I will vouch with smokie that its split 50/50 it seems. Half of the people seem to want guns for self defense, or for hunting. However one thing that has been mentioned before in American media is that all these people shooting up schools come from suburbia, where they are not raised with gun culture as much as a hunting family would be. I also know quite a few kids of hunting families, and they have a great respect for the power of a firearm.

Apologies, I should have said handguns (pistols, revolver...) instead of guns. Blame my lousy English.
The difference being that handguns (and shotguns probably) are usually to self-defense (or attack) while hunters use rifles (which are more or less common everywhere hunting is allowed, including Europe. I'm too lazy to look after the figures, but I think the rifle ownership rate may be higher in Canada and some European countries than in the US).

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QUOTE @Dalriada where are you from? Why would people think you are crazy for not having a right to protect yourself against potential violence?

I'm from France, although the opinion would be shared in some other countries.
And the loon part would be for thinking that lax rules on guns would protect you.


QUOTE Human nature is still a valid excuse or do you disagree with the fact that everybody has a breaking point? For some people they might kill themselves. For others they choose to act in a different way. In these cases by attacking the target they feel is responsible for messing up their life.

Everyone has a breaking point.
The question is : why do school shootings happen more in the USA than in Spain or Switzerland ?
The answers can be numerous, but they are a bit more specific than human nature.

QUOTE (Headswabby @ Feb 16 2008, 11:55 AM)Well here's the thing:

First off, the guy that shot up NIU was taking medication for some sort of mental instability apparently. I went off the meds, began acting erratic, and then shot up his alma mater.

Background: I'm a student at U of I... which is where this guy went to grad school. My parent's live about 25 minutes from NIU, and so I have lots of friends who go to NIU, luckily none were injured either.

Yes, I understand this point. People should not really be worried the average American committing this sort of crime, as these crimes are often done by people with mental issues or extreme ideas. Banning weapons in schools will prevent such people from using guns. It is also wise to remember that it is often difficult to judge who is mentally stable let alone whether or not they are taking medication. In many of these cases (and I believe this case) there are no warning signs before the crime is committed, so this scenario is likely to be repeated again if no action is taken.


QUOTE (Headswabby @ Feb 16 2008, 11:55 AM)If we banned guns, and people switched to knives... well there wouldn't be any school shootings! but there would definitely be school stabbings. I think we should say screw putting bans on guns, because it doesn't work. However, if we charge an arm and a leg for bullets... well I don't think those "kids" will be spraying down innocent students anymore. My apologies to the affected hunters.

I can assure you just because people can stab each other here doesn't mean there are going to be school stabbings. In fact I believe school shootings in England are more common than school stabbings! There was the Dunblane massacre that involved a gun man 12 years ago. The problem of using a knife against multiple people is that unless you are Bruce Lee or Arnie you risk being overpowered very quickly. In any case if you had knife you are unlikely able to kill one or two people. If you had a gun however the number of deaths is bound to be much higher... As they say it is a lesser of two evils.

QUOTE (Dalriada @ Feb 16 2008, 02:48 PM) Apologies, I should have said handguns (pistols, revolver...) instead of guns. Blame my lousy English.
The difference being that handguns (and shotguns probably) are usually to self-defense (or attack) while hunters use rifles (which are more or less common everywhere hunting is allowed, including Europe. I'm too lazy to look after the figures, but I think the rifle ownership rate may be higher in Canada and some European countries than in the US).
Actually more hunters use shotguns than rifles. A shotgun is much more versatile. It can use small shot for birds and small mammals and larger shot and single rounds called slugs for large game.

Also rifles are more effective weapons than pistols and shotguns. Why do you think all the armies in the world use rifles? They are better for killing people. They are more accurate, have a longer range, and are all around more powerful. Yes armed forces issue pistols as a secondary weapon for soldiers less likely to see combat and some issue shotguns because of their versatility for police work and crowd control in addition to close combat but, the primary infantry weapon is the rifle.

Pistols are used for ease of concealment, one handed use, light weight, portable take anywhere fire power. They are the least effective most difficult type of firearm to use.

America despite popular belief does have gun laws. I purchased a firearm recently and while it is a quick simple process and there are ways around it I think it works for the most part. If you lie on the form you fill out you can and will be charged for breaking the law. The end result hefty fines and imprisonment.

Also while America may have violence in this form I want to note that Europe has its share. I was under the impression the British have hooligans who fight and break stuff at rugby games and France had horrible riots in Paris a few years ago. I thought that stuff happened every few years.

QUOTE Also while America may have violence in this form I want to note that Europe has its share. I was under the impression the British have hooligans who fight and break stuff at rugby games and France had horrible riots in Paris a few years ago. I thought that stuff happened every few years.

Did I ever say that other countries have no crime or violence ?
Certainly not, just that it was less gun-centered (statistics about crime in the USA, Canada and the EU's countries can be found quite easily).

Nevertheless, two little precisions
-hooliganism is far more common in football than in rugby (and is not limited to England).
-The depiction of the French riots of 2005 by the American media was not the most accurate (They happened, but in the suburbs, not in Paris. It made 'only' one death. The main roots of the conflict weren't religious, but social).


QUOTE Actually more hunters use shotguns than rifles. A shotgun is much more versatile. It can use small shot for birds and small mammals and larger shot and single rounds called slugs for large game.

I stand corrected. Here (and as far as I know), hunters use only classical hunting rifle (with different kinds of ammuntions for birds or for deers of course).

I think you are getting things confused Dalriada. A shotgun *is* a type of rifle, and is the most common and popular firearm for use in hunting. Pistols are - believe it or not - also used in hunting sometimes.

Anyway; I think a part of the problem with some of your (all of you) arguments is that the media blows *everything* out of proportion. You may hear about school shootings more often in the United States, but it doesn't necessarily mean that it doesn't happen in other countries - or just as often. Our media just takes even the smallest things and makes them huge. Also consider that the United States is a much larger country than many of the other Western countries, and has a larger population as well as more Universities where this could happen, raising the probability above that of other, smaller countries.

Now, for the popularity argument: I actually agree with overfiend in this. Considering the fact that most of these shooters end everything by blowing their own brains out, there must be some motivation for taking others with you. I think that - and research has shown - that it is because of the attention (in this case infamy) gained from what is done. After such an event, EVERYONE hears the shooter's name, knows how they lived, what they did, how many people they killed, etc. I think that for some of these guys, its kind of like "who can take the most out" game.
If the media didn't put the killer's name and all those details out there so forcefully, it might prevent people from doing this kind of thing, and instead simply cutting their wrists in their bathroom alone. I know its kind of morbid and wrong, but I'd rather them do that then go into a random classroom and start shooting at everything that moves...

I'm going all over the place here, but as smokie said, it's EXTREMELY difficult to get the constitution changed here. Just for it to be considered, it has to be proposed by 2/3 of both the House AND the Senate, then has to actually be accepted.

Lets see...the knife argument: A man armed with a knife could (it has been tested) walk through a busy hall and kill 4-5 people before being noticed. In the ensuing panic, the assailant could kill at least two more before being restrained. This was tested several times in different scenarios after the shooting at Virginia Tech due to arguments about how stricter gun laws would/wouldn't prevent more massacres.

I'm gonna stop here so I can actually think again o.o

QUOTE (dchaosblade @ Feb 16 2008, 08:22 PM)Anyway; I think a part of the problem with some of your (all of you) arguments is that the media blows *everything* out of proportion. You may hear about school shootings more often in the United States, but it doesn't necessarily mean that it doesn't happen in other countries - or just as often. Our media just takes even the smallest things and makes them huge. Also consider that the United States is a much larger country than many of the other Western countries, and has a larger population as well as more Universities where this could happen, raising the probability above that of other, smaller countries.

I think some statistics are needed in this debate otherwise we will begin to talk in circles. Here are some statistics for USA (1st), Germany (3rd) and the UK (5th). I am sure all these countries fall under the category of western countries.

USA (Bureau of Justice Statistics for 2005) - 16,692 homicides involving the use of firearms this translates to 1 death per 17,972. USA has a population of approx 300 million.
Germany – 384 homicides involving the use of firearms in 2000 (sorry about old figures). This translates to 1 death per 213,541 people. Germany has an approx population of 82 million.
UK (Home office figures for 2006/07) - 566 serious OR fatal injuries in 2006/07 this translates to 1 per 106,007 people. UK has an approx population of 60 million.

Looking at these figures it is clear the amount of gun crime in America is higher even if we factor in the different population sizes. This leads us back to Dalriada’s original argument. If Americans are as violent as every other nation why is the amount of gun crime in the US so much higher than the rest of the western world? My opinion is America’s greater supply (thus greater availability of guns) is the main reason why this sort of crime is higher though I’m sure there are other significant reasons that contribute to this high crime rate as well (notice I said main reason not only reason). To complicate matters even further I am aware Switzerland has a very high gun ownership level while managing to maintain a low rate of crime. This suggests that there is another major factor that determines gun crime apart from gun ownership levels.