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20 years in prison for manga


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#41 Finder_Seraph

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Posted 03 April 2009 - 08:08 AM

Well, I tried to read through all the posts but it had simply become too much of an ordeal (so I apologize if I reiterate what someone had said already).

I think in regards to this incident the biggest question is why are these laws in place and not necessarily if there is another law to circumvent what happened (although if you are or will be a lawyer in the forseeable future cudoes to you).

Of course there are some underlying, albiet debatable, truths and intuitive reasons why people should not do things such as child molestation. In this case some obvious reasons that pop out at you probably are you are taking advantage of a minor (taking advantage was the key word; i.e. statutory rape; other words that come to mind are manipulation or deciet in reference to a childs understanding of the situation).

Although, in my opinion though this law has some credibility (i.e. as seen above or even as mentioned in another members post, "as not supporting child pornography industries) really any laws such as this or similar to this are actually indicative to what is socially acceptable. People think its gross so its outlawed. Ex. We think cloning is not socially or morally acceptable (although also for credible reasons) so its outlawed.

However, where do we really draw the line. Linearly thinking one could deduce tricking young women (or men even for that matter) in to having sex with them is bad. However, guys on a daily or even every second are trying to figure out how to get into a girls (adult) pants. When the girl finds out that guy just used them people get pissed. Similarly, one could say this is like tricking a child into sex. People are pissed and some one got screwed. So why isn't it agaisnt the law in this case? (or do we just feign rape?).

Answer: no idea?

Then again, going back to the main topic of owning material depicting child pornography, the question I suppose stems back to is this socially acceptable (and then we can out law it?).

Like what others have been posting, why don't we ban any movies or material depicting murders? What about movies which have rapist and murders in them such as 'Kiss the Girls' (a best selling novel before made into a movie)?

The answer: in my opinion is social accepability.

Other examples that hit closer to the issue are that of incest and beastiality (although the latter not being an actual issue in this case). Both socially unacceptable so... outlawed (and yes I do realize incest causes genetic problems / retardation; thats not the point). Beastiality marginally questionable under animal curelty but mostly people don't want any marterial of or depicting beastiality becuase, really it offends people.

So now on to the hard (or easy, depending on how you look at it) question. Should this guy be punished though incarseration (where he will likely be raped in jail)?

The Answer: in my opinion no, not unless he is preforming these acts in his free time

But then again to delve deeper into the issue of social acceptability. If we can watch murders or write about them or even rape for that matter where do we stand before its too graphic in nature? Or more simply stated what is tasteful (or ?artistic?)?

The Answer: another question
Question: do you want material floating about with people engaged in sexual acts with animals?

Personally, not really. So if you said something or even thought something along the lines of no (including this is questionable to me). Then you too have done what eveyone else has done to a aleged piece of material depicting child pornograph. So in essence you have contributed to forming where these social qualms come from.

In retrospect in hentai where all maner of animal / alien / demon / ghost / unidentified tentacle rape people is allowed to be produced and sold in North America then why not this material which is a whole lot less questionable and lewd.

So what I find disturbing is not necessirily that this happened but how is the ruling nearly as strict as the minimum for murder (25 years as I recall). [Either that or I have to accept this is just to fanciful and has beome an April fools joke]

Overall, though I think social perception is the main cause of these issues (and sometime ipso facto the creation of laws againt these thing). I also think that it also boils down to maturity and comfort level. The question is can you be mature enough even when uncomfortable to accept something for what it is? Further more where do we draw that line? OR is the question how comfortable are you with child pornograph that you are willing to do something/nothing about.

And that was my rant (no really. it was a rant).

Edited by Finder_Seraph, 03 April 2009 - 08:38 AM.

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#42 Gustav1976

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Posted 04 April 2009 - 12:35 AM

Hmm, actually the comment about maturity and comfort level was a valid point. I'm not quite sure how to phrase it so forgive me if I mess up and offend anybody but one COULD say that a psychologically mature person if noticed something that offended them would not over react by completely banning something but merely raise the point that they find it unacceptable and after that ignore it. This however brings into question how to you measure how mature somebody is psychologically speaking, especially when you are considering a group as opposed to an individual and taking into account the phenomenon that people in groups tend not to act or think as individuals but more as a collective where if one makes a move the others will follow without much thought as to why.

#43 mamori

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Posted 14 April 2009 - 10:50 PM

you both make excellent points, and I whole heartily agree with you on the origins of this legal debacle.

The question now is: what do we do about it?
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#44 Primula

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Posted 14 April 2009 - 11:46 PM

QUOTE (mamori @ Apr 14 2009, 05:50 PM)
you both make excellent points, and I whole heartily agree with you on the origins of this legal debacle.

The question now is: what do we do about it?

We should all make a stand or what ever u call it and all buy those questionable stuff and see what they will do to the who society that think this is wrong lol...
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#45 Ausdoerrt

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Posted 15 April 2009 - 02:18 AM

For those willing to take a stand, I believe there was an organization helping the guy accepting donations a while ago. wink.gif
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#46 Inoji

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Posted 15 April 2009 - 03:11 AM

I'm a little late on this but...
So question. He ordered something yaoi and had it mailed to him. They decide they have the right to invade his privacy by seeing what he had ordered and then arrest him? What happened to invasion of privacy?
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#47 Ausdoerrt

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Posted 15 April 2009 - 03:14 AM

I believe they're allowed to check the contents of international mail orders (and they usually do).
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#48 Little red

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Posted 17 April 2009 - 11:13 PM

Your going to rally support for a guy that no doubt fantasized about having sex with kids?
Sure 20 years is harsh, but do we really want to send the message that any type of sexual fantasy that involves children is okay. Just beacuse its drawn..? Does it really matter? The whole message of sex+kids=good is still in there minds whether the kids are real or not

#49 mamori

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Posted 18 April 2009 - 06:17 AM

QUOTE (Little red @ Apr 17 2009, 05:13 PM)
Your going to rally support for a guy that no doubt fantasized about having sex with kids?
Sure 20 years is harsh, but do we really want to send the message that any type of sexual fantasy that involves children is okay. Just beacuse its drawn..? Does it really matter? The whole message of sex+kids=good is still in there minds whether the kids are real or not

so? we don't punish people for their thoughts in my country
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#50 Dalriada

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Posted 18 April 2009 - 07:18 AM

QUOTE (Little red @ Apr 17 2009, 05:13 PM)
Your going to rally support for a guy that no doubt fantasized about having sex with kids?
Sure 20 years is harsh, but do we really want to send the message that any type of sexual fantasy that involves children is okay. Just beacuse its drawn..? Does it really matter? The whole message of sex+kids=good is still in there minds whether the kids are real or not

Yeah, right :
And I think any people reading a manga where a character kills another character should be charge with murder !


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#51 Gustav1976

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Posted 18 April 2009 - 04:41 PM

red-chan, you;re making a big assumption there. The reason why laws say you can;t be arrested for just thinking something is because one of us really knows what another person is thinking. After all for all you know I could be thinking of hiring a hitman to torture my ex-wife to death (which I'm not of course) but my point is that you don't know for sure.
The issue being raised is that the guy in question had his property searched and so on purely because of the manga. In some respects it would be like you buying a comic depicting a high school shooting or something similar and then having all your belongings confiscated and searched just in case you were planning on copying what was in the comic. The general conclusion is that one or another the law has to change regarding manga or there will be risk of all sorts of other manga being banned just because those making the laws are over-protective of the public.
Nobody on this forum advocates sex with minors, there is just concern that 20 years just for buying manga sends the wrong signals as all the general public will actually remember is that he was arrested and he owned manga.
I hope all that made sense it's been a while since I had to actually put a detailed explanation of thoughts and such on paper so to speak.

#52 Little red

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Posted 19 April 2009 - 01:47 PM

Buying a manga on a high school shooting wouldn't necessarily be sending the message of doing the things in the manga are good. You would most likely see how the kids involved in it went through horrible trauma. and would show the shooter in a bad light. If it didn't i wouldn't want to read it.

I somehow doubt the manga this man ordered depicted the struggle of a child struggling with abuse. It would most likely be depicting these things as a means of arousing people... Not showing the dirty pedo in a bad light.

So yes i do believe a man that buys a manga depicting a sexual act with a child in a good light deserves to have his property searched.

I cant imagine they would of sent him to prison for 20 years for buying a manga about a child's struggle with abuse. I'm pretty certain for a sentence that severe the manga must have been horiblle.

So can i read this man's mind and know exactly what he thought it, no of course i cant but i can assume no right minded person would want to watch an adult have sex with a child in a erotic manner.




#53 Gustav1976

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Posted 19 April 2009 - 05:27 PM

The main concern on the thread red-chan is that because of the way the media could relate the story the public will only think the guy was a pervert and that it was the fault of manga and whilst that particular manga may have been bad in all sorts of ways, banning it COULD open the flood-gates to have other titles which are less offensive but still have the potential to cause offense banned. It's the whole slippery-slope problem that is the main concern. Governments tend to go overkill when it comes to censoring out of fear of public opinion.
Anyway, do we know anymore about the case yet? I rather lost track of what was happening with it.

#54 shinigamii

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Posted 19 April 2009 - 09:08 PM

http://boards.fansub...st=0

I thought this would be of interest to you guys. Same thing to be honest thought that topic never got as much attention as this one.
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#55 Gustav1976

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Posted 20 April 2009 - 12:05 PM

Ah looks like that topic was before my time shini tongue.gif
Makes for an interesting read though and could easily be added onto this thread. The whole topic has might be think about about what is obscene and what isn't and about how do you view something in one context or another. Some classical works and certain other books that are widely accepted have some pretty strong subjects.
Macbeth for example has: murder and incest. Even the Old Testament of the Judeo-Christian Bible has some rather unusual content in parts.
So what makes something ok in one context but not in another? It's worth thinking about.

#56 mamori

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Posted 21 April 2009 - 12:32 AM

i think what this comes down to is that possession of media should not be illegal unless it *directly* harms someone in it's creation, where then the one possessing the material increases demand for the "product," thus inducing further harm in more production. THIS is why CP is illegal in the U.S.. NOT because it demonstrates a mental failing in the one possessing it, or that it's "disturbing/horrifying," but that they are in effect an extended accomplice to those producing it.

This is NOT the case for VCP, and is not the case for many forms of media deemed "obscene."

I'm not against obscenity laws all together mind you, as I could see certain times when PUBLIC obscenity laws may be needed. However, the punishments for these "crimes" should match the crime itself. Simply being forced not to display the "obscene" material in public, and perhaps with threat of a fine should be the limit of it. ANY jail time seems ridiculous.
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#57 khael

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Posted 11 May 2009 - 01:38 PM

http://www.stuff.co....tainment/752742

QUOTE
McEwan appealed the decision arguing that fictional cartoon characters could not be considered people as they "plainly and deliberately" departed from the human form.

But Justice Adams agreed with the magistrate, finding that while The Simpsons characters had hands with four fingers and their faces were "markedly and deliberately different to those of any possible human being", the mere fact that they were not realistic representations of human beings did not mean that they could not be considered people.


I don't get this way of thinking. Animated characters, real people with rights?
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#58 theotakusan

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Posted 12 May 2009 - 03:44 AM

this is upsurd..ive been molding over this for awhile now.

i disagree with the whole premise of arresting him because they so call assert this book, as containing child pornography.

if something like this cant be considered to be for entertainment purpouses, then people have to re-evaluate the sense of entertainment.
entertainment, entertains idea's that take place that dont involve anyone.
its a narrative based on fiction, represented through illustrations or screenplays or storyboards or whatever.

this is like saying a psuedo-act that hasnt even taken place or isnt real, is represented and that makes it real enough to suggest it as being enough to the equivelent of the actual offense of having child pronography.

the acts of child pornography involve children, not fictional characters engaging in acts indecent and determined by their age(which characters dont have but just suggested to have, they cant, they arent real!)to be illegal.so child pornography is with children, not characters or characters based on idea's.is suggesting something the same as something happening?i dont think so, nor should he be held accountable for this bulll!

the order to which child pornography is suggested is not based on f'in manga, its on an actual event that contains real people. thats why its called yaoi and thats why child pornography is called child pornography. ph34r.gif

#59 Dalriada

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Posted 12 May 2009 - 04:06 PM

QUOTE (khael @ May 11 2009, 07:38 AM)

I don't get this way of thinking. Animated characters, real people with rights?

I'd be wary with bad journalism. It's quite common to quote one sentence, so it don't make sense while the full text would make maybe a little more sense.

In this case, it would be surprising that the judge think that virtual characters are legally similar to real people, otherwise Sylvester Stallone would be tried as a mass murderer.

But he may have think that it's a proxy for (real) child pornography, then that it's should be punished.
It works that way with laws against hate speech : even if you don't attack a specific person, you can be convicted.


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#60 khael

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Posted 14 May 2009 - 12:33 AM

QUOTE (Dalriada @ May 12 2009, 05:06 PM)
I'd be wary with bad journalism. It's quite common to quote one sentence, so it don't make sense while the full text would make maybe a little more sense.

In this case, it would be surprising that the judge think that virtual characters are legally similar to real people, otherwise Sylvester Stallone would be tried as a mass murderer.

But he may have think that it's a proxy for (real) child pornography, then that it's should be punished.
It works that way with laws against hate speech : even if you don't attack a specific person, you can be convicted.


I guess the proxy thing does explain it a bit.

Edited by khael, 14 May 2009 - 12:34 AM.

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