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#21 wedora

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Posted 24 May 2011 - 02:33 PM

Bah, looks like I outsmarted myself sad.gif I totally expected the mafias disdain for me to be a ruse and for them to go after someone who could result in the innocents wiining. Shoulda gone with my gut and waritas suggestion sad.gif

As for pms, it helped quite a bit but the game could easily be played without them as long as mafia starting percentage doesn't exceed 30%. Nioki was obviously mafia to me on the 2nd day, having been the first to seek out the doc/sheriff & first to call on a lynch target. Why didn't the mafia kill anyone on night 3 and guarantee a win?
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#22 Kid-Wolf

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Posted 24 May 2011 - 04:07 PM

Ok that well let's just say real life happened wedora-san causing me and maybe the other members to be unable to sync up for a vote that night. The major blunder was that I wasn't around an interent connection in time though. rolleyes.gif
Also, we weren't planning on going after you until you did the supprise lynch the silenced guy bit there. tongue.gif

In any case the thing for PMing other members kind of takes the fun out of the game. Besides if I was taken out without others PMing thier roles to the others there is still a chance that I would of died never the less, but not as a massive majority and to top it all off being sileneced on the same day.

Normally the game usually has, for a small group as this is usually 2 Mafia 1 Sheriff, and 1 Doctor for the special roles. The larger the group another role of the same comes up such as the doctor which gives a slight edge for people not to die at night.

Besides PMing is normally to keep the night scene a secret to everyone and give's the GM an idea on how to play out the next day. Pretty much if this was played in real life pretty much the fun would be sucked out of the game. sleep.gif

Besides the Sheriff can use thier ability by finding out who is a mafia or not. Although if he/she finds out who is or isn't can help out by defending or redirecting the blame to someone else here. Besides I'm not sure if we can play the Therapist at all if we can't trust the honor system mind you.

Oh yeah about the morning part on the first day. Usually they never lynch on day one since it makes it more along the line of a 50/50 chance on being right on someone or not, but they do kind of show that some people from the mafia has entered town, but no one knows who yet.

Edited by Kid-Wolf, 24 May 2011 - 04:29 PM.


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#23 JunMisugi

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Posted 24 May 2011 - 06:25 PM

I know I'm not participating in this game, but in my opinion it would be more fun if the townspeople are not allowed to pm each other.

Since I'm not participating in this game I'm mostly saying that out of the view as a spectator, it would be more fun to see in the actual thread how things are developing, you know with growing suspicion, and one saying for example well I'm the doctor (who in reality also is the doctor) and one of the mafia members counters it and says he is the doctor himself and the other is lying. Basically guessing along with the players and fevering with them. Like watching a good crime movie.

Of course it might put the townspeople in a disadvantage, but out of a spectators view it would be more entertaining to see things develop in the actual thread, and maybe it would convince more people to join this game. And like wedora said, as long as the mafia starting percentage doesn't exceed 30% it should be okay.

In any case it's just a game, and even if one site might be at a disadvantage what matters in the end is to maximize the fun out of it for the players. And todays innocent can be tomorrows mafia member.

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#24 Kid-Wolf

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Posted 24 May 2011 - 06:52 PM

Besides I have played the Villager/Townsfolk role and your key thing is to prove your innocence by any means, and try to make your case to the others about your doubts on someone else. It's pretty much try to pass the buck onto someone you belive is mafia. The Sheriff role is to make sure the townsfolk don't lynch at random here and there, and to make sure they don't lynch an innocent that the sheriff knows and to lynch the mafia members that the sheriff knows or thinks he/she knows. Besides this is partially an RP type game here so you have to play up to the role of either an innocent or claiming to be an innocent.

Normally when I played this game anyone who died in the night usually have thier roles revealed the following day, but it's by your descression on if you would want to do that to make things a bit easier on everyone here or not dchaos-san.

Besides it was always with two mafia members for a small group mind you, but the bigger the group the more mafia members that can come in by the descression of the GM here. Although some new classes can be nown as a double standard here in which they are pretty much looking out for themselves to the point of were they can be targeted by both the mafia and the sheriff.

Edited by Kid-Wolf, 24 May 2011 - 09:31 PM.


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#25 wedora

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Posted 24 May 2011 - 11:43 PM

oh lol, I just read my cause of death description ohmy.gif . I guess I drew a lot of ire, huh?
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#26 Kid-Wolf

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Posted 25 May 2011 - 01:14 AM

Well if you didn't RP something like that and picked on me it wouldn't of been that bad. laugh.gif

Although I have to say that when everyone pretty much knew each other's roles this game lost its flavor text and fun though. sleep.gif

Since it kind of shows that eveyone kind of knew thier role the Therapist is too broken to use in this game since it seems people don't understand the honor system here. rolleyes.gif

I mean I originally thought I was only allowed to speak with the mafia members that I was with along with the GM through PMing. If I knew about that I would of tried to trick the current sheriff here into being taken down by the next day. Shame that real life got in the way though, but hey it happens. wink.gif

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#27 dchaosblade

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Posted 25 May 2011 - 03:02 AM

QUOTE (Kid-Wolf @ May 24 2011, 09:14 PM)
Well if you didn't RP something like that and picked on me it wouldn't of been that bad. laugh.gif

Although I have to say that when everyone pretty much knew each other's roles this game lost its flavor text and fun though. sleep.gif

Since it kind of shows that eveyone kind of knew thier role the Therapist is too broken to use in this game since it seems people don't understand the honor system here. rolleyes.gif

I mean I originally thought I was only allowed to speak with the mafia members that I was with along with the GM through PMing. If I knew about that I would of tried to trick the current sheriff here into being taken down by the next day. Shame that real life got in the way though, but hey it happens. wink.gif

Who do you think broke a rule? And which rule?

And yeah, that's the other reason I kind of want to remove daytime PMs - if everyone knows who everyone is through discrete chat, it removes the challenge and fun and instead becomes just meh - case and point, look at the thread. There were two posts that were just "vote: Nioki" and THATS IT (other than one post explaining the lack of posts).
Yes, it's harder without PMs, but the challenge is a large part of the game. You remove that and there's not much left.

As far as the therapist, yes, I know you didn't like it, Kid-Wolf. I'm working on a solution so you wont have to worry about it anymore, you can stop harping on that now =P
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#28 Kid-Wolf

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Posted 25 May 2011 - 01:10 PM

Sorry if it sounded like I was harping there my friend but if we can't stick to the honor system then it feels like that this game poses no challenge at all. In any case you may need to clear up the PMing the daytime rule since I think that is kind of being abused here. I mean I liked it when it felt like a story here, but now it looks like no one is even trying at all. dry.gif

Besides I got a few PMs that people were talking to Nioki and letting me know who is what class at one point, but he didn't give things away fully, but he did let me know that someone was PMing the others in game. When that happened I should of mentioned it to you so you could of strightened things out.

Also, on a side note if people didn't abuse the PMing in this game and that still happened to my I would of accepted my fate no matter what here.

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#29 monsta

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Posted 25 May 2011 - 02:35 PM

QUOTE (Kid-Wolf @ May 25 2011, 02:10 PM)
Sorry if it sounded like I was harping there my friend but if we can't stick to the honor system then it feels like that this game poses no challenge at all. In any case you may need to clear up the PMing the daytime rule since I think that is kind of being abused here. I mean I liked it when it felt like a story here, but now it looks like no one is even trying at all. dry.gif

Ok Wolfie we can see that you are not a fan of the pm system. There is no need to keep repeating your point. There was no rules against pm'ing to begin with and since numerous members have never played this game - or other online role-playing games before so they just assumed pm'ing would be part of the game. In any case dchaos did not mind the pm'ing during the day phase and since there was no rule on it then there was no reason to think it was wrong. It is hard to know about unwritten rules if you never done this sort of thing before.

Look at this way, the mafia members have the advantage in this game as they are the the informed party. So in an attempt to level the odds somewhat, the innocents felt they needed to do something. That something involved communication to members they thought were most likely NOT mafia members.

In the end though I think we should have a vote to see whether pm's should be allowed and see which members support it. As for the spectators watching, and their enjoyment, I think a possible idea could be to post all the pms after a game is completed in a second thread so people can see how various members came to the conclusion they made. For that to happen though would require that all day pm's are sent to the GM of the game so he could track and record the hidden developments of the game. It is only a suggestion, and like I said: if most people are in favour of dropping day time pm's it then that would be the end of the story. However if people did wish to retain the pm's then this alternative could be considered.

I just got this pm from warita and and felt people needed to see it as she was keen on getting her point across on this matter:

QUOTE (warita)
I keep hearing from second hand there is discussion going on in the discussion thread I am not allowed to enter and read, so Monsta will now forward some thoughts of mine.

I would like to call everybodies attention to these points:

1) I asked Dchaos, whether PMs to other game players during the day are allowed and he said: YES I never sent a single PM during the night, nor did I receive a PM during the night. The rules have NOT been broken.

2) If PMs during the day are forbidden, then the townspeople cannot coordinate their actions. This means, that they cannot pass on the information on who they think is mafia and why. This type of information CANNOT be revealed in the public thread, because the mafias would read it.

3) If PMs during the day are forbidden, then PMs during night for Mafia should be forbidden as well, because that is when the mafia is coordinating their actions. And I sure want to see, how you mafia guys agree on killing the same person, without sending each other PMs of the type: "I think we should kill Monsta666, what do you guys think?" In that case, try coordinating it in the main thread as well, so that the doctor can see it and figure out who to protect!!!

4) If this is how the game is supposed to be played, that the townpeople are completely helpless, because they have 0 information (unlike the mafia) and the sheriff cannot warn his fellow townspeople and they cannot coordinate their actions and hence effectively defend themselves against the mafia and the mafia holds all the advantages in their hands..... in that case, I kindly refuse to play this game.

I dont see why I should have to rely ONLY on what is said in the main thread, where everybody can say anything he wants and nobody is ever going to say something clear enough and i have no chance of figuring out, whether i can trust it or not.... this is not fun for me. Because this boils down to sheer luck and coincidence and nothing else.

Edited by monsta666, 25 May 2011 - 02:59 PM.


#30 Kid-Wolf

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Posted 25 May 2011 - 03:31 PM

To me it kind of defeats the purpose of having a thread in the first place if we're doing a PM session during the daytime. Besides that's how the game is normally played. In any case it's more along the line of there being no chance to shift the blame to someone else without even knowing it. It's like getting a Supprise Broadside without even having a chance to react at all.

So she write you a nice PM huh monsta-san? Oddly enough she PMed me a while back about what I've been stating here as well. (Shame that I deleted it). That only means she might be reading this thread but not posting in it.

Also, when I did play this we'd usually have a unainumus vote against someone for a lynch, but seeing that this is the first time we've done this I can understand wanting the people playing to get a feel for this.

One more thing could we please stop bringing up the PM issue here because I don't feel like getting on dchaos-san's neveres over this even moreso. sleep.gif

I mean after mentioning on how I've played this in real life before and how things have been kind of out of place almost makes it were we need to work on what rules need to be changed and what ruless need to be left alone. sleep.gif

I'm just letting you guys know on how I've seen this game played in the real world, and I was hoping that it was possible to impliment some of this to the forums here.

In any case it's not really all that fun if we're not using the thread unless just to lynch pepole. I mean the reason I like this game is because you have to find the truth on who's what. The Pming I think just killed who mystery feel to this and kind of compromises the fun for this game. Heck even to on observer I liked how things played out for the first few days, but then things just went downhill from there. I mean look at the thread now, there's no flavor to this making it feel like the thrill for the game died right after I did. rolleyes.gif

Edited by Kid-Wolf, 25 May 2011 - 03:53 PM.


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#31 monsta

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Posted 25 May 2011 - 03:55 PM

Like I alluded to in my previous post, I think the best course of action is to have a vote and see what people think of pm'ing during the day phase. If the majority are against it then we go with that, if they favour it we keep it. Then again dchaosblade is the one running the game so he can make the final decision, I just think the fairest way is to have vote on it.

Also, if you read the opening line of the quoted text it said she heard about the events in the thread second hand...

#32 Kid-Wolf

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Posted 25 May 2011 - 04:12 PM

QUOTE (monsta666 @ May 25 2011, 11:55 AM)
Also, if you read the opening line of the quoted text it said she heard about the events in the thread second hand...

Hmmm.... makes me wonder who's been telling her now Ibi-san. dry.gif

But you have to understand that I'm not trying to complain about what's going on here, I'm just stating what I know from playing this game before, and I'm just commenting and questioning about the rules here. That way if I ever play another round here it can fell like how I played it in the real world here. In any case you want to smoth out any rough patches you come accross you know. wink.gif

You have to understand I'm not complainning about how I was killed off, but how the game is being played. I mean people that are not playing this game are looking at that thread. That thread can either make or break the idea of playing this game or not mind you. By the way we were going at first it looked like a normal game, but now it just looks like a we lynch so-and-so and I don't feel like givng a reason. If this game ends up like that next time you can safely bet that not that many people would be thrilled to want to play as of now.

I only wanted to lay it since it had the RP feel to it. I mean that's how the game is played. You have to find the truth in a sea of lies and doubt. If you don't think that is fun then the only thing I have to say is go back and read 100 Mystery Novels and come back to play this and say that it isn't fun to play. tongue.gif

Yes that like was sort of taken from the first eisode of LadiesxButtlers mind you. biggrin.gif

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#33 Nioki

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Posted 25 May 2011 - 06:56 PM

Well, I have to agree with Wolfie on this matter. Talking during Night Cycle (NC) for mafia members is the only way possible for them to converse without someone else finding out their role instantly. During Day Cycle (DC), on the other hand, no one can even physically converse without letting the others notice that, since usually everyone is sitting in a nice elegant circle when playing. I have also never encountered real-time virtual mafia games where day whispering was allowed.

QUOTE
2) If PMs during the day are forbidden, then the townspeople cannot coordinate their actions. This means, that they cannot pass on the information on who they think is mafia and why. This type of information CANNOT be revealed in the public thread, because the mafias would read it.

3) If PMs during the day are forbidden, then PMs during night for Mafia should be forbidden as well, because that is when the mafia is coordinating their actions. And I sure want to see, how you mafia guys agree on killing the same person, without sending each other PMs of the type: "I think we should kill Monsta666, what do you guys think?" In that case, try coordinating it in the main thread as well, so that the doctor can see it and figure out who to protect!!!

4) If this is how the game is supposed to be played, that the townpeople are completely helpless, because they have 0 information (unlike the mafia) and the sheriff cannot warn his fellow townspeople and they cannot coordinate their actions and hence effectively defend themselves against the mafia and the mafia holds all the advantages in their hands..... in that case, I kindly refuse to play this game.


2) The whole point of the game is informed vs uninformed. The townspeople can easily converse during DC an pass any information on suspicions. Since the Mafia knows you are innocent anyway, there is nothing to lose by voicing your thoughts and opinions at DC. It is information that CAN be revealed in the public thread, because bringing it out harms no innocent directly, neither does it expose them in any way, unless you of course openly proclaim that you are doctor, sheriff, therapist or other class.

3) Unlike innocents, Mafia's main cycle is the NC. Saying anything target related during DC for them, unlike for the innocents with lynching, will instantly expose them.

4) The point of the game is, how it has already been countlessly repeated, Informed Minority (Mafia) vs. Uninformed Majority.
The power of the sheriff (at core) is not warning others (though the sheriff can do that if they wish), but gaining valuable information about peoples real identities, and using that information, to amplify the information they gain from analyzing the DC discussions, and use that combo, to affect the flow of the game.

QUOTE
I dont see why I should have to rely ONLY on what is said in the main thread, where everybody can say anything he wants and nobody is ever going to say something clear enough and i have no chance of figuring out, whether i can trust it or not.... this is not fun for me. Because this boils down to sheer luck and coincidence and nothing else.

Actually it doesn't boil to that. but boils to a mind-game, a detective game. Figuring out who you can trust and who you cant, is the whole point of this game. Compared to backstage planning and creating informed majorities vs informed (but in the end less informed) minorities. Yes you can try to win by luck and coincidence , then usually mafia will prevail, I saw many examples where the towns-folk just threw a vote, then without any conversations, most of everyone else just spasmed the same vote for lynching, resulting in quick, almost instantaneous games, without any fun. As for the way it happened now, that, even though is less stupid, and not as fast, it also removes the intellectual part of the game.
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#34 dchaosblade

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Posted 25 May 2011 - 07:40 PM

Ok, a few things.
First, please stop slinging unfounded accusations. Unless you have proof or a real reason to be suspicious, don't start pointing fingers at others - this goes both for the accusations of possible cheating and for the accusations of sore losers.
Next, I essentially agree with everything Nioki just said. The innocents who have special roles tend not to actually reveal their roles - their main goal is to help steer the game. The sheriff KNOWS who's guilty/innocent based on their investigations - and so when an innocent is accused, they'll try to help steer the votes away from the innocent. At the same time, they'll lay votes on the guilty and try to encourage other members to do the same. Meanwhile, the Doctor protects those they think are innocent. In a standard game, if the Doctor messes up and selects a Mafia member to protect, it doesn't matter - the Mafia member wont be 'saved' - use your Save, regardless of how little you know!!
Revealing a role IS a strategy - and at times is a very important one! But it shouldn't be relied on. And as Nioki said, saying things in the thread during the Day Cycle wont hurt an innocent unless they reveal their role. The fact is that all Mafia members already KNOW you're an innocent. And they're gonna kill someone anyway. You should make the most of what you have and try to get them first!

==================================

I am still planning on removing daytime PMs for all players. Night time PMs for Mafia are essential for the game to work - though I am working on a way to make this better and more "fair". Fact is, though, that in real Mafia games (real life) the Mafia wins 65-75% of the time. It's how the game works, it's how the game was DESIGNED. It's not supposed to be completely fair to both sides - that's the entire point. A good murder mystery is never fair - nor is real life. I refuse to alter the game mechanics to such a point that the game loses it's entire meaning.


Now, here's what I'm considering doing next game:
CODE
2 Mafia members
1 Sheriff
1 Doctor

Day cycles last until a majority vote for a lynch (or no lynch) exists. Night Cycles last for 24 hours.
Game starts with a Day cycle, but a murder of an townsperson (non-player) occurred the night before - allowing RPing a lynch on the first day without making everyone appear bloodthirsty for no reason.

I may or may not also assign one person a Bulletproof vest or Berserker ability - this person will not know they have it though (and thus, no one in the game will know whether the ability is in until after it's been used).
I may alternatively also assign one person one of the other special Innocent roles I named before - no one will know if said Role was assigned EXCEPT for the person to whom I assigned the Role.

During the Day Cycle, no PMs will be allowed, at all.
During the Night Cycle, all people with Roles (including Mafia) will ONLY be allowed to PM the GM (me).  Mafia members may [b]not[/b] PM eachother.  If the two Mafia members choose the same target, that target will be killed.  If they select different targets, I will forward each person's vote to the other Mafia member, and they will have the chance to change their mind and agree with their compatriot.  If neither Mafia member changes their mind (or if they don't reply in time), then I will randomly select one of the two targets to be killed by flipping a coin.


The rule regarding Mafia communication during Night Cycle serves a couple of purposes.
First, it removes the concerns about the "overly unfair ability for Mafia members to plan strategies at night". Because they can't talk to eachother, they can't create special strategies.
Second, it alligns the game more with a real-life game scenario. When playing the game IRL, here's what happens:
GM says it's night time, and tells all players to close their eyes and place their heads on the table (or some similar way of preventing people from seeing).
GM tells the Mafia members to awaken and select a target.
Mafia members raise their heads and either point or nod to a target - all Mafia members agree on the same target, no vocal communication occurs. Mafia members then close their eyes and lower their heads again.
GM does the same for the other Roles - and these Roles do the same (raise their heads, point - Sheriff receives a nod or shake of the head to show innocence or guilt).
GM says night ends, declares any results of mafia kills, etc, and says day cycle begins. Discussion begins.

So yeah, by removing the PMs, it removes the ability for Mafia to create plans or whatnot, and instead limits them to only what they would have if we were playing this in person.

Does this make sense to everyone? Does anyone disagree with any of the above?
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#35 wedora

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Posted 25 May 2011 - 08:24 PM

I like that setup, as long as mafia counts are kept low. The mafia had a 100% chance to win this game on the first day cycle after murder 1 through collaboration and convincing one player to vote on maiku with them. The only reason its remotely close is major missteps on their part. As for knowing roles, the only townsperson corroboration necessary after the innocent maiku was murdered was to determine whether jules or lavi was the last member of the mafia. The first voter as well as the first seeker of the doc and sheriff was transparent from the get-go (nioki), while one of the few innocents left contested the vote and pointed out through their vote another member. It didn't heavily impact the game except finding out who was silenced, which was obvious after he didn't efend himself when accused. More seasoned players will pick up on it easily anyway.

It seems like the game functions much better with a mob boss, but that def requires more players. God acting as the boss substitute will alleviate that problem.
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#36 Nioki

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Posted 25 May 2011 - 09:04 PM

Actually, Wedora, that transparency was more luck on your part with misreading something. since I didn't even seek the doctor, ever in the thread, I was trying to locate him through analyzing what you guys where saying, eventually believing it was Lavi tongue.gif though still had doubts up to near the end-game. ^^

I like the rules you thought up Dchaos, and good idea with coin flip for mafia, since different timezones where making it hard on us. I had to stay up quite late a few times, for example, and even though that has been dealt with for the DC now (unlimited time granted), I was really getting worried for the mafia side, because if I ever get to mafia again, that would be tiring with having to reconfirm votes among ourselves all the time before sending them to you tongue.gif So High-five for the ideas
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#37 dchaosblade

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Posted 25 May 2011 - 09:11 PM

QUOTE (wedora @ May 25 2011, 04:24 PM)
I like that setup, as long as mafia counts are kept low. The mafia had a 100% chance to win this game on the first day cycle after murder 1 through collaboration and convincing one player to vote on maiku with them. The only reason its remotely close is major missteps on their part. As for knowing roles, the only townsperson corroboration necessary after the innocent maiku was murdered was to determine whether jules or lavi was the last member of the mafia. The first voter as well as the first seeker of the doc and sheriff was transparent from the get-go (nioki), while one of the few innocents left contested the vote and pointed out through their vote another member. It didn't heavily impact the game except finding out who was silenced, which was obvious after he didn't efend himself when accused. More seasoned players will pick up on it easily anyway.

It seems like the game functions much better with a mob boss, but that def requires more players. God acting as the boss substitute will alleviate that problem.

Yeah, if we get more players in the future, I'll set it up with a Godfather role, and eliminate the random coin toss thing (Godfather's vote is final). But until then, I figure that my suggestion would fulfill the necessary requirements and alleviate various concerns.
Three mafia members in an 8 person game is obviously going overboard. Setting the game to start in Day Cycle will give the innocents a little extra chance to get to grips with other players and possibly do a lynch on a Mafia player.
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#38 warita200

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Posted 25 May 2011 - 10:32 PM

QUOTE (dchaosblade @ May 25 2011, 03:11 PM)
Setting the game to start in Day Cycle will give the innocents a little extra chance to get to grips with other players and possibly do a lynch on a Mafia player.

without any clues? Worked good with Maiku, lol smile.gif

#39 monsta

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Posted 25 May 2011 - 10:42 PM

Speaking of extra members, I think it is advisable to start recruiting new members to this game because it is very likely a few players will drop out. It should also be assumed for future games that there will be some drop outs. So recruitment should be an ongoing process.

I would encourage all participants in this game to start recruiting and we shouldn't worry about having too many members; you can never have enough because even we exceed the bare minimum then extra roles could be added to make the game more interesting. In any case my main advice would be to send out pms or instant messages to people you think would join the game. I did send a load of pm's prior to this game starting and 3 people responded favourably to the pms and joined. So they can work. Obviously the more people who send pms the more likely it is this game will keep running. But if no new players are recruited then there is a real danger there won't be a second game due to a lack of players.

#40 Kid-Wolf

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Posted 25 May 2011 - 11:57 PM

Well I can agree with that as long as you mention to the mafia members who they are since that way they can try and defend each other in the DC of course. Aside from that I'm ok with it. Also, with bigger groups you can throw in another doctor or another special class for this game, but how about we finish up this round first before recruiting others here.

Besides we can always do a recuiting in a bit. Also, dchaos-san just to be sure about this, you're planning on being the next game's GM right?

In any case as long as we agree on your new rule set I think we'll have a better chance with this. Oh and one more thing do we have to lynch on day one before the first night, or do you want it as an option?

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