The "N" Word

I just caught wind of this....

Since I can't post links, go to the CoalGuys website and see how many times they use the n-word and how they make a video of some black vblogger on youtube calling him that....

is anybody else as extremely disgusted and angered as I am?

People should seriously let them know how messed up that is! Also I say for those of us who aren't OK with racism, we stop watching their fansubs completely...otherwise we are basically going along with them as if its ok with us. I'd even say Fansub.tv should also completely stop hosting any of their videos.

Thoughts?

Yeah, I've got several:
1) This thread is technically against the rules.
2) CoalGuys consist of black guys...who like to say the word 'nigger' - and as far as I'm aware this is apparently accepted (black people can call each other niggers, but others cannot use the word).
3) They aren't necessarily racist just because of the language they use. As I said, I believe several of their members ARE BLACK...so unless you're implying they are racists against themselves...

So then, I say this thread should be locked/deleted for being in the wrong section, being against the rules, etc.

Edit: Apparently according to the New General Rules, the rule stating that discussing/comparing/etc Fansub Groups has been removed, so this thread doesn't break the rules (?). That said, it does need to be moved out of the Thoughtful Section, and it appears borderline spam to me (and is certainly an offensive against a fansub group).

I'm pretty sure there is a racism topic around here on the forums and I can't just seem to find it at the moment, so whoever finds it, either link and/or close or merge this thread with it.

As for the topic, it's repulsive and it shows just what kind of people are in the society nowadays influenced by the mass media. However, what can you do to stop them in this kind of world. They can do anything they want since whatever goes online essentially stays online. Also note that it's not only CoalGuys who do this kind of stuff, if you visit fansubber's irc channels for a long enough periods of time, many of them do these things quite often. Most are just a bit more subtle about it.
Also, them fansubbing and them creating these kinds of videos are two different things. Even if you stop watching their fansubs, it won't stop them from making such videos. It was their choice to not only make these videos in the first place, but also start fansubbing at all. Given their attitude, they could probably care less about what others think anyways for the most part, which is the case for most fansubbers, since they are doing this "service" for free.

QUOTE (dchaosblade @ Jun 25 2009, 11:45 PM)
Edit: Apparently according to the New General Rules, the rule stating that discussing/comparing/etc Fansub Groups has been removed, so this thread doesn't break the rules (?). That said, it does need to be moved out of the Thoughtful Section, and it appears borderline spam to me (and is certainly an offensive against a fansub group).
The rule has not been removed. It simply hasn't been re-added into the Anime Section Rules. Either way it wouldn't have broken that specific rule since it's not discussing the "quality" of the group's releases, but rather their attitude in other issues

As for moving/locking, I leave that choice to another mod to decide. I currently have pros and cons for the topic, though I'm leaning more towards the con side at the moment.

QUOTE 2) CoalGuys consist of black guys...who like to say the word 'nigger' - and as far as I'm aware this is apparently accepted (black people can call each other niggers, but others cannot use the word).

Indeed. There's a movement called "négritude" (whose close translation in english would be niggerness) created by Leopold Sédar Senghor, emphazing on the pride of being black.

Nigger is just a word, after all. It's seen as deeply racist in the USA because of the American history, but for other cultures or some specific subcultures, it can much more mild (I've heard it used in a completely non-racist way, although it's unusual).

I have to agree with the poster here. I don't care if they're racist, but we can't be supporting this kind of behavior, we live in a time where we need to come together as the human race and cut this kind of thing out, there no reason to be ignorant, or lazy.

I'm going to have to pick on dchaosblade here, Because I do believe he is wrong.
QUOTE 2) CoalGuys consist of black guys...who like to say the word 'nigger' - and as far as I'm aware this is apparently accepted (black people can call each other niggers, but others cannot use the word).

Why? Why is it okay for black people to say it but not white people, Because they live closer to the equator then my ancestors? Because they have more melanin then white people?


QUOTE 3) They aren't necessarily racist just because of the language they use. As I said, I believe several of their members ARE BLACK...so unless you're implying they are racists against themselves...

If I call you ignorant, and we're both white, does that make it less of a slur? Do you feel less offended? If a black person called you ignorant would you be angrier?


QUOTE did god tell u racism is bad or is this made up by people? - in other words, why does it dehumanize humans and if so, why is it repulsive ???

You're right. It is just a word. But it IS offence to some people, so you can't use the word. The word IS derogatory. Even if you don’t use it in an offensive way, It’s not okay to say it.

Kit-Tsukasa, I wouldn't close this thread because it's not JUST about Racism, It's about if we should keep supporting these people too. We're not a large group of people, but we must lead by example. If anything, re-open this with a poll and a direction along the lines of "This is what they did, this is how some people feel. Should we keep using there subs?" This could be MOVED to the General Discourse forum thou.


This is not okay.

What meaning do words have? Only that which we assign to them. However, there is often more than one meaning or connotation given to a word, and none of this bars new meanings or connotations being given to it. I contend that there are non-derogatory uses of the word nigger, and using the word nigger without intending to insult or degrade is perfectly reasonable.

Shorter: language is for conveying ideas. If the ideas being conveyed are not derogatory, the language is more-or-less acceptable. Certainly good enough for the internet.

QUOTE
If I call you ignorant, and we're both white, does that make it less of a slur? Do you feel less offended? If a black person called you ignorant would you be angrier?

If you call me ignorant, it's still a slur. But not a racist slur.

Since the word 'nigger' is a racist slur, that would make it a non-racist racist slur. Mind-blowing, isn't it ?


Maybe it disturbs you that it's easier (and more okay) for a black person to mock another black person, but it's true nontheless. Because they are far less likely to have an agenda behind it.

QUOTE (Dalriada @ Jun 26 2009, 06:23 AM) If you call me ignorant, it's still a slur. But not a racist slur.

Since the word 'nigger' is a racist slur, that would make it a non-racist racist slur. Mind-blowing, isn't it ?


Maybe it disturbs you that it's easier (and more okay) for a black person to mock another black person, but it's true nontheless. Because they are far less likely to have an agenda behind it.
I think you missed my point, Or I'm missing you'rs

Is his logic not "Beacuse they're both black it's not racist" So wouldn't it still JUST be a slur.

Black person calling one a nigger
White person calling another iggnorant.

Neither would be Racist, but they're both still slurs.

You're not more offended by the fact a black person calls you ignorant, then a white person. A black person shouldn't be less offended by a black person calling him a nigger then a white person calling him a nigger.

It's stupid that a word would change meaning beacuse of your skin color.

It disturbes me that there are still people on this earth that use ignorant terms like this. it disturbes me that there are people who let things like this still be said. It disturbes me that as a race, we fail to advance our self. It disturbes me that there are people who SUPPORT the use of words like nigger.

QUOTE I think you missed my point, Or I'm missing you'rs

You're missing mine.

Let's imagine a situation.
On the one hand Stephen Hawking says "You're less intelligent than I am".
On the other hand, Lindsay Lohan says "You're less intelligent than I am".

Do you think both statements are on the same level of "sluriness" ?
I don't.

The person saying the sentence has a major influence on how the sentence will (and should) be received.


QUOTE It disturbes me that there are people who SUPPORT the use of words like nigger.

There's nothing wrong with the word 'nigger'. There's a lot of wrong with what's usually behind the word.

Personally I do not care

they sub good, and quickly

plus all the other reasons people have stated above.

QUOTE (NeoScott @ Jun 26 2009, 08:03 AM) Why? Why is it okay for black people to say it but not white people, Because they live closer to the equator then my ancestors? Because they have more melanin then white people?
Have you ever been with a large group of black people that use that word with each other before? You may not like it but in some groups of people nigger is a word sometimes interchangeable with the likes of bro and buddy or used in fun jest. Just kinda how things are with some people. I've been hanging out with groups like that multiple times before or just walked by groups like that on the street. Would I ever go up to the them and do the same thing? Hell no cause I'd get my ass beat so fast, Unless I was really good friends with them cause I do have one or two that really don't care about the word nigger.

You may not like it, but they can use the word however they please as it's just a word and freedom of speech defends that, no matter how offensive you find it.

Sigh if it was up to me no one would use the word. I understand it is a term of endearment for all sorts of social complex reasons i cant be bothered to go into.

It reminds me of a teacher who called a boy a nigger, defending himself saying that he pronouced it in the same vernacular as other black people refer to each other. Ofcourse its a retarded excuse but inorder to avoid ambiguous situations like this it would just be easier and safer if everyone stayed clear of the word.

This is not me saying that sub cultures should conforms to dominant cultures. AAVE and all that is fine, but stay away from words that have negative connotations attached to it.

The word is not progressive so i see no need for it.

Well all I can say is this CoalGuys do very good subbing and are pretty accurate with tier work, so I don't care on who they call what anyways since that's pretty much someting that has noting to do wit the series that they sub anyways.

Besides if they can call people names like that then let them, I mean they have the freedom of saying whatever anyways, and I don't think tey are trying to be racist to begin with.

The CoalGuys are black? is there any proof of that? To me It seem just the same as some of the stuff I have seen on 4chan and also in real life (I have met many other white people who think the use of the word is OK). That is why I think chances are that the CoalGuys are white but I could be wrong and If I am I'd like some proof.

I know black people use the word amongst themselves, however most don't say it with a GER at the end ("nigger") (I'd like to make clear that I don't believe saying it with a GA at the end ("nigga") makes it any better), I'd like to make one important point about the word that I think a lot of people are missing as they try to excuse its usage.

Actually I am going to quote an anti-racist writer (Tim Wise) who I think sums it up well.

This is taken from an essay entitled "On White Pride and Other Delusions:
Reflections on the Rage of the Uninformed" and I think this part makes the point I'd like to make well even if its a bit out of the context of the essay.

"As for racial slurs, while it is certainly fair to point out that their use is always inappropriate, no matter whom they're directed against, to think that a term like hillbilly is truly equivalent to those used against people of color, like "nigger," "spic," "raghead," or "chink," requires one to exhibit a profound ignorance of history. These and other slurs against people of color not only sound more hateful, they have operated in a more hateful manner, by forming the linguistic cornerstone of systematic oppression and institutionalized racial supremacy. Hundreds of thousands were enslaved and millions have died at the hands of those who thought of their victims as "niggers," "spics," "ragheads" and "chinks," and used those terms as they went about their murderous ways. American history, in its historic treatment of persons of color has been an inter-generational hate crime, which didn't begin to end, even in theory, until the 1960s."

The word Nigger as with other racial slurs has a whole bloody history behind it. THAT is a fact that nobody can deny.

QUOTE (Kid-Wolf @ Jun 26 2009, 11:23 AM)Well all I can say is this CoalGuys do very good subbing and are pretty accurate with tier work, so I don't care on who they call what anyways since that's pretty much someting that has noting to do wit the series that they sub anyways.

Besides if they can call people names like that then let them, I mean they have the freedom of saying whatever anyways, and I don't think tey are trying to be racist to begin with.

QUOTE (trespasser @ Jun 26 2009, 09:09 AM)Personally I do not care

they sub good, and quickly

plus all the other reasons people have stated above.
I'll just say that it's disturbing to see posts like these. For the simple fact that it just shows that some to probably many ppl aren't concerned when ppl use deragatory racists terms as long as they provide them with good subs I will say this without going into a major history lesson because nobody is interested in that but the term "nigger" is deep rooted in thoughts of negativity and opression towards African American ppl. It's still highly offensive to African Americans and it's not the common "slang term" that black ppl sometimes call each other.

You may hear another African American person use the term "nigga" buuuut it's a big nono to call each other a "nigger." Somehow the term "nigga" was morphed into a term of brotherhood (like that's ya boy) between some African Americans as a way to give the racist term less meaning. And I can understand why that would be confusing to ppl who aren't of African American descent. I personally would rather see ppl just not use the word at all so not to give ppl the reason to use the term.

But I question the person who (coalguys) is using the term "nigger" because it's very rare for you to see an African American refer to each other as that. To say that they have black person working their so it's okay is beyond absurd. It's a very racist term and I would never work for anybody who is using that term so freely as coalguys is doing right now. I can't support a group like this period who continuously uses any kind of racial slur.

QUOTE (MegaB12DOTS5000mcg @ Jun 26 2009, 11:45 AM)The CoalGuys are black? is there any proof of that? To me It seem just the same as some of the stuff I have seen on 4chan and also in real life (I have met many other white people who think the use of the word is OK).  That is why I think chances are that the CoalGuys are white but I could be wrong and If I am I'd like some proof.
I didn't see your post before I posted buuuuut I totally agree show me the black person who is okay with being called that (nigger) because I have never met one to this day. IDK if the CoalGuys are white (doesn't matter what their race is IMO) buuuuut I have serious doubts that is true.

QUOTE (Kit-Tsukasa @ Jun 26 2009, 12:49 AM)As for the topic, it's repulsive and it shows just what kind of people are in the society nowadays influenced by the mass media. However, what can you do to stop them in this kind of world. They can do anything they want since whatever goes online essentially stays online. Also note that it's not only CoalGuys who do this kind of stuff, if you visit fansubber's irc channels for a long enough periods of time, many of them do these things quite often. Most are just a bit more subtle about it.
Also, them fansubbing and them creating these kinds of videos are two different things. Even if you stop watching their fansubs, it won't stop them from making such videos. It was their choice to not only make these videos in the first place, but also start fansubbing at all. Given their attitude, they could probably care less about what others think anyways for the most part, which is the case for most fansubbers, since they are doing this "service" for free.

I believe its important to send people like this a message that what they are doing is not OK. If people send them messages telling them are not going to watch their fansubs and that their fansubs will be removed from big website like this one (with a public announcement from those website) then it will really let them know that Racism is unacceptable to those websites and also it will show where the rest of us stand (anime fans as a whole).

I mean, If I was not into anime and saw this kinda stuff happening within anime circles either online or in real life with hardly anybody being openly and actively opposed to it, I'd have a pretty bad impression of anime fans as a whole. Sorry to say but I think that is how it would make us look to many people.

Also I'd like to ask that this be kept as its own topic so that it doesn't get buried into another older topic. I am afraid that will make it harder to people to see and possibly make its impact less. I think this is a discussion people should be having often. I myself have been silent about it far too many times.

I appreciate your not locking the thread.

I definitely intended for this to be a serious thoughtful discussion and NOT a flame war of any kind.

Edit:

senpai-kun, I agree. I think its extremely disturbing that people don't care.
I have heard a few black people say the n-word with GER at the end but really most don't. And again NOBODY can deny the bloody history behind the word. Why black people would want to use it is beyond me but Non-black people should know better not to use it. Just because there are black people that do, doesn't give us any excuse to use it. That doesn't change the history of the word or history in general. The word has been and indeed is a racist word that like racism itself, damages a human being on every level: Psychologically, Physically, Spiritually, and Mentally.

Although if you think about it, that very word did have another term for it, back before it became a racist slang. Usually it means a penny pnicher. Besides you don't have to be black to be called that. You just have to act a certain way to be called that.

QUOTE (Kid-Wolf @ Jun 26 2009, 02:12 PM) Although if you think about it, that very word did have another term for it, back before it became a racist slang. Usually it means a penny pnicher. Besides you don't have to be black to be called that. You just have to act a certain way to be called that.
That's Niggard, not Nigger, which are completely different words. But regardless of the origin it would be ignorant to completely disregard the way the word has been used over the past century. That word will never truly be a "safe" word to say after the year's of oppression and slavery that is instantly associated with the word. I do believe that it is a word that just really shouldn't be used, but people still do in both a friendly manner and in a derogatory manner as we are most definitely not a world devoid of racism. That word though will really never have the same impact on me as it does black people since I am quite white and don't have the history involved with that word. I will never know and feel the true oppressiveness of it and don't want to pretend like I could.

QUOTE (Kid-Wolf @ Jun 26 2009, 01:12 PM) Although if you think about it, that very word did have another term for it, back before it became a racist slang. Usually it means a penny pnicher. Besides you don't have to be black to be called that. You just have to act a certain way to be called that.
How does your comment have anything to do with the main point of this thread? If you look at the website and the context of the way they're using the word it's clearly obvious they're not using it to mean "penny pincher" (I assume that's the term you were trying to say) It's a video of a black guy dude they refer to as nigger...

QUOTE (Barbobot @ Jun 26 2009, 01:44 PM)That's Niggard, not Nigger
Geez and on top of that he even gets the words/meanings wrong. But you're a smart guy BIG RED it's not just about whether your particular race is insulted buuut having an understanding for other races and how it can be highly derogatory/insulting to them.

QUOTE (Barbobot @ Jun 26 2009, 10:38 AM)Would I ever go up to the them and do the same thing?  Hell no cause I'd get my ass beat so fast
LMAO I for one would not want to see this happen to you Barbo

QUOTE
"As for racial slurs, while it is certainly fair to point out that their use is always inappropriate, no matter whom they're directed against, to think that a term like hillbilly is truly equivalent to those used against people of color, like "nigger," "spic," "raghead," or "chink," requires one to exhibit a profound ignorance of history. These and other slurs against people of color not only sound more hateful, they have operated in a more hateful manner, by forming the linguistic cornerstone of systematic oppression and institutionalized racial supremacy. Hundreds of thousands were enslaved and millions have died at the hands of those who thought of their victims as "niggers," "spics," "ragheads" and "chinks," and used those terms as they went about their murderous ways. American history, in its historic treatment of persons of color has been an inter-generational hate crime, which didn't begin to end, even in theory, until the 1960s."

The word Nigger as with other racial slurs has a whole bloody history behind it. THAT is a fact that nobody can deny.

Is nigger a slur, if it's not used as a slur ?
I'm not american, so I won't go into the word's history. But in French, the direct translation is 'nègre' (same root, niger, gra, grum = black, the color). And some black people have called themselves nègres. Because they were proud of what they were.

It's like the word "gay". Is it a slur ?
I've heard it used as a slur, without any doubt. And yet, that's how some/most homosexuals call themselves.

It's like a svatiska. Used by any 'White power' supporter, it's clearly a racist/nazy symbol. On a japanese map, it points a temple.


Besides, the words by themselves are no power. How they are used is the problem.
I could launch far more vicious attacks against black people by using a perfectly politically correct language than by using some slurs. It's pretty easy : just be very polite, but used all the negative stereotypes associated with black people by the racist movements (lazy, drug dealers, rapist, uncultured).
You will touch far more people doing that. That's why I'm far more worried against that than against a bunch of subbers using 'nigger'.