Christmas

I had this interessting discussion couple of days ago with a rather religious friend of mine. He is religious alright, but his only knowledge about religion seems to come from church.

He was complaining, that nowadays christmas is too comercialized and ppl forgot what the real purpose of christmas was, the celebration of the birth of Jesus. I agreed with him, but couldnt resist to add, that Jesus was not born on 24.12.

My friend almost jumped couple of feet: What do you mean he was not born on 24.12., what do you think we celebrate all this time? And I said: well, the chances he was born on 24.12. are about 1:365 Nobody really knows whern christ was born, so long time ago church decided, we will celebrate his birth on 24.12.

My friend didnt believe me..... he said church wouldnt lie about such a thing. And I told him, that church doesnt lie about it. If you ask church directly, if Christ was born on 24.12. you will get a direct answer: NO Church just doesnt talk about it, because it is a touchy matter for church. Reason why??? Because pretty much all the catholic holidays have been carefully chosen.... chosen to be on important days of PAGAN holidays. When christianity started in Europe, it had a lot of trouble with the pagan religion. A lot of tribes were refusing to accept christianity and kept celebrating their pagan gods. Thats why we celebrate Christ´s birth on 24.12. because this day was one of the most important in the pagan religion, closely followed by eastern..... do you see a pattern now?

Well, my friend refused to believe me.... even though I dont think it is that bad. I mean, if we dont know when christ was born, we can pick a day to celebrate it, right? Why not??? Whats wrong with that?

QUOTE (warita200 @ Dec 21 2006, 03:21 AM) Nobody really knows whern christ was born, so long time ago church decided, we will celebrate his birth on 24.12.
I saw a documentary once and there were some people who had many theories about that. Actually, we have some clues as to when he may be born considering the side events in the bible. We do have records of the census the romans were doing at that time. So using that as the base, they inferred that the actual time was probably somewhat later than the 25. But your right, there is no way to know the exact day.

I believe the reason they choose the 25 is for a practical reason. It was close to another holiday of the time and that made it easier for early Christians to celebrate it. Beside, the idea of Christmas was never to say "this was THE day". It is to celebrate that Jesus was born and that he existed.

Why would it matter exactly when he was born?

QUOTE (Bold @ Dec 21 2006, 09:20 AM) Why would it matter exactly when he was born?
That's just like me saying this to my wife, "Why would it matter when we Celebrate our anniversary? The point is, we got married at some point in our lives and now are living happily with one another. Who cares if we Celebrate it day or two before or after, or for that matter, month or two after, just like now that it's been few months since our anniversary."

My point is, some Christians, such as yourself do not care when he was born, and some others, such as (I'm assuming) Warita do care about when the Christ was born and it does matter to them.

heyyy.. when does Santa kick in?.. i thought christmas was all about him.. hahaha!
noob's got a point.. but when Christ was born can't be taken literally nor to Christian's extreme importance because there is just not enough evidence to prove Christ's Birth's exact date.. therefore.. all we CAN do now is celebrate on the time estimated (December 25th), cause it's the closest and most efficient source we have about the date of Christ's actual birth..
now this has been said.. does anyone have any input on Santa?

judging by all accounts of the event, Jesus was actually born in the summer :roll:. christmas is celebrated when it is because as previously stated, the pagans had a huge celebration around that time too (winter solstice anyone?), and were sorta feeding off of that.

however, i, like many of my friends, don;t celebrate christmas as the birth of Jesus. hell, my parents read me the whole 'cristmas story' every christmas eve (along with 'Twas the nigth before christmas'), but I never really associated the holiday as a celebration for him (*i am not christian, parents are non-practicing...sorta, don;t know if you can be less than non practicing ).

anyway, to me, christmas is simply a holiday to celebrate peace and happiness, and a time to gifts to those close to you as a way of sorta saying "thank you for being here."

so yeah, next time you see a sign or hear someone say "Jesus is the reason for the season," inform them that they are two seasons of .

also note that the 'star' was very likely jupiter and i think venus crossing paths.

The actual day of Christmas was pretty much to interfere with pagan practices of the time to celebrate the winter solstice. But like people have been saying, it doesn't really matter what day it is. I'm not Christian, but if people want to celebrate the birth of a savior, fine by me. It doesn't matter when exactly Jesus was born. Setting a definite, "this day is it" for Christmas is like deciding when to celebrate the birthday of an orphan whose actual date of birth is unknown...it makes people feel better if they can say "it's this day".

The points made in this discussion are all pretty much on point. We don't know the exact day of Jesus' birth. The Scriptures do not even speak of the time of year.

So why the day? Well, there is significant evidence from as early as 120 AD or so that Christians celebrated the birth of Jesus on either the 6th or 10th of January. The Eastern Church still celebrates Christmas on the 6th of January. For the day to be celebrated in winter that early in Christianity there must have been some evidence of a winter birth.

But in the Fourth Century (about 350 AD), a general concensus of the Western Church moved the day of celebration to December 25th. It was a practical decision.

One of the big difficulties in early Christianity was the abundance of gods and goddesses worshipped by the culture at large. Christianity worships one God. (This is not the time to debate the nature of the Trinity, please!) One of the major Roman deities was the Sun God (for whom the weekday "Sunday" was named). His day of celebration was December 25th. As with general days of celebration, people wanted to celebrate with others on that day.

So the church moved the day of celebration of Christ's birth. It allowed their worshippers to celebrate a day, and to choose Christ as the focus instead of the Roman deity.

Churches in the US do something very similar during Halloween. Many have a "fall festival" kind of celebration with games and candy and fellowship, giving thanks for God's good gifts. It allows the children to celebrate without having to go out "trick or treating". Costumes are allowed at my church, with a non-spooky emphasis.

So, no one that I know of argues that December 25th is the real day of Christ's birth. Well, Warita's friend did, but out of ignorance. He may have been sucked in by someone using vague handwaving who asserts that the actual day was December 25. There are a bunch of people out there who think it really matters to know which day it was exactly.

But I don't care. I celebrate December 25th, and I renew the spirit of the season throughout the year. Christ the Savior is born! Christ the Savior is born!

Regards,

QUOTE (rtgmath @ Dec 22 2006, 03:06 PM) as early as 120 AD or so that Christians celebrated the birth of Jesus on either the 6th or 10th of January. The Eastern Church still celebrates Christmas on the 6th of January.
Now that's interesting. I was always told, that day was significant because it was the day the wisemen finally reached Christ after he was born on Dec 25th. Goes to show how easily someone can adapt a date!


Most of our current holidays fall around another celebration. Like Christmas and the solstice, Easter and the equinox, Valentines and the Lupercal .... I don't know exactly what All Saints Day is, but it's the day after Halloween on the calender!

The church wanted to end Paganism, therefore they had to incorporate something in order for the pagans to switch to Christianity, hence that's why alot of 'holidays' are around the times of when the pagans celebrated theirs.

Wasn't it a king who declared Christ's birth or Christmas? Or am I getting my info mixed up. I can't recall because there was a time I was really feverish about this type of stuff and would debate with my cousin and whomever wanted to challenge me but now, I've got better things to do.

There was also a problem with the calendar and how it changed from Jesus birth to its present form. I remember seeing a documentary ages ago. Something about the roman calender had only ten months at the start and november and december were added later. If I remember the documentary correctly that was not the only change that happened to the calendar of the past before it achieved its present form.

QUOTE (PadUnregistere @ Dec 24 2006, 09:56 AM) I remember seeing a documentary ages ago. Something about the roman calender had only ten months at the start and november and december were added later.
That would be the Julian calendar as opposed to the Gregorian calendar we use today. The Gregorian calendar is simply closer to the real time of the earth rotation around the sun.

Keep in mind that a date, as in a day and month, is simply the position of the earth in relation to the sun. Nothing more. The concept of a year is completely abstract. The only interesting part is to estimate "how much time it has been since a specific event". The date itself is not really important.

QUOTE (chiisai_hana @ Dec 22 2006, 02:21 PM) Most of our current holidays fall around another celebration. Like Christmas and the solstice, Easter and the equinox, Valentines and the Lupercal .... I don't know exactly what All Saints Day is, but it's the day after Halloween on the calender!
Lol; All Saint's Day is also known as "All Hallow's Day"; and Halloween as "All Hallow's Eve". Where Hallow's eve was the day evil ghosts, demons and the like would come out and haunt the people. People would put candy out on their porch in supplication to keep these critters away, and would wear masks to confuse them. Hallow's Day on the other hand is when the good ghosts, spirits, and such would come and walk the earth again. After some time, All Hallow's Day was downplayed, and All Hallow's Eve - renamed to Halloween - was commercialized b/c of the selling of candy and costumes. Eventually; people just forgot the significance of the two days, and just used Halloween as an excuse to dress up, scare kids, get free candy, and generally have fun.

The two days were actually Pagan days, and the church generally disdained it - and still does. In fact, I used to go to a christian private school when I lived in Europe; and you would get detention if you wore a costume on holloween; lol.

hmm.... i thought jesus was born somewhere in january.
they just moved it to dec 25 becuz they wanted to erase the pagan holidy of the sun gods. im christian lol.

You all are right, we dont exactly know when Christ was born..as a matter of fact we would never know since he already existed even before man!

in one day of our human years (Dec 25 as chosen), we commemmorate actually him being made flesh..

QUOTE (dchaosblade @ Dec 24 2006, 02:12 PM)QUOTE (chiisai_hana @ Dec 22 2006, 02:21 PM) Hallow's Day on the other hand is when the good ghosts, spirits, and such would come and walk the earth again. After some time, All Hallow's Day was downplayed,

Actually, the modern All Saint's Day (ASD so I don't have to type it out a lot) isn't that different than it was for the pagans; ie a day for good spirits to walk the Earth/be venerated. ASD is a holiday to venerate the martyrs, saints, etc of the church. I was customary in the early church to venerate a martyr on the anniversery of their death, but after a while there were so many, a common day was declared to celebrate them all. Whereas the pagan Hallow's Day was to celebrate the annual return visit of pure spirits of those they once knew etc. So...ASD was probably put on Hallow's Day both to cover the pagan holiday, and for the similarity between the two. Note: for the ASD info, I paraphrased off a Catholic Encyclopedia I googled, so take any disagreements to them.

And sorry, I know this is off topic

Despite the truth to many Christian holidays overlapping Pagan ones, I have yet to see what the big deal is. For me its rather nice as I have less to celebrate. While many would say this contradicts, I practice Christianity and Paganism, so its nice having most holidays around the same time.

The fact that one religion covered the holidays of another shouldn't be that surprising. Since some of the earliest times in history nations and religions, when trying to eliminate another, would replace important dates with their own, but have them adapted to the culure they are trying to overpower. Give humanity another couple hundred years and the ability not to wipe itself out of existance and there will probably be some new mindset/religion replacing all the christian holidays (or picking dates near them). Kind of like how commercialism at Christmas is about Santa and thanksgiving about gaining 8 pounds. St. Valentines day is getting cavities and sex. To many people I don't even think the Christian holidays retain their original holy status, but have also had their meaning replaced.

I do not believe that Christmas is Jesus' Birthday, since the sheperds were outside the night he was born. And why should the three kings go to see him if it is very cold at night?

In winter, Israel is as cold as Eastern USA. Cannot agree? Get a world map.

I have never really ventured to wonder if Jesus' birthday is truely on Christmas... Everyone here has excellent points. I am just gonna continue to watch this thread and post when I think it is neccisary. Excellent topic.

QUOTE Wasn't it a king who declared Christ's birth or Christmas? Or am I getting my info mixed up. dry.gif I can't recall because there was a time I was really feverish about this type of stuff and would debate with my cousin and whomever wanted to challenge me but now, I've got better things to do.

I think he was a Pope who did this...


QUOTE The church wanted to end Paganism, therefore they had to incorporate something in order for the pagans to switch to Christianity, hence that's why alot of 'holidays' are around the times of when the pagans celebrated theirs.


Do you want to know how this "church" ended the Hellenic Pantheon religion, when it was one church? By slaughtering 15.000 Hellenic Polytheists, by ending the Olympic Races, by closing the various philosophy schools and by stating a law saying that anyone who was stick to the "Old religion" shall be put to death, unless of course, be baptised as Christian... these are documented facts and not my saying... A great end for "Paganism"...

It's that time of year, the time when I break out "Itsudatte My Santa!," buy presents for family and friends, and argue that christmas has nothing to do with "christ." In fact in my opinion, christmas is quite representative of american culture in it's eclectic origins, as well as general message of good will and kindness. And let me state now that I thoroughly LOVE christmas, as the agnostic/shintoist/minister of the Universal Life Church that I am.

This general sentiment and traditions passed down to us are, by in large, the germanic pagan holiday of Yule. So remember when your kissing with your sweetheart under the mistletoe this year, that you're kissing under bull testicles, that holly represents menstrual blood, and that wreaths were used to by roman priests in their celebration of the rebirth of their sun god, who died around the 21st. A common theme of many holidays during this season is the simple recognition of the winter solstice, or rather the fact that the longest nights have past and the days will begin to get longer and warmer from that point on. A time of hope for the future and an approaching spring.

"Another tradition people blindly observed centers around the “Christmas tree.” The modern Christmas tree originated in Germany. But the Germans got it from the Romans, who got it from the Babylonians and the Egyptians."

"The following demonstrates what the Babylonians believe about the origin of the Christmas tree: “An old Babylonish fable told of an evergreen tree which sprang out of a dead tree stump. The old stump symbolized the dead Nimrod, the new evergreen tree symbolized that Nimrod had come to life again in Tammuz! Among the Druids the oak was sacred, among the Egyptians it was the palm, and in Rome it was the fir, which was decorated with red berries during the Saturnalia!” (Walsh, Curiosities of Popular Customs, p. 242)."
*another rebirth story

In the end, the only thing christian about christmas, is the name.

So don't get offended if someone says "happy holidays," or "seasons greetings." And also, don't get offended by someone wishing you a merry christmas, especially if you're not christian. Just because it's evolved to have an odd name shouldn't take away from the spirit it is said in, or the actual origins of the holiday itself.

*and don't get me started on santa claus. well, maybe once my final papers are done, and after the JLPT this sunday ^^


http://www.colbertnation.com/the-colbert-r...nt_video=181322

http://www.lasttrumpetministries.org/tracts/tract3.html

http://www.realtruth.org/articles/461-actc.html