the 'nice' guy

hello,

I recent topic came up at school once again and it rambled off into the topic: Do the 'nice' guys win? by winning i mean getting the girl and such. We debated on how in every girls life, there is atleast 1 'nice' guy. This 'nice' guy is the person who sticks with her through thick and thin. Helps her when she's down, comforts her even though its meant to be her boyfriends duty to do so. But the thing is, he is only a friend in her eyes.
So the question is: Can the 'nice' guy be something more than a friend?
To her, he is only a friend...and sadly thats all he ever will be. Even though he's been around for her for ages, she still doesn't have feelings towards this 'nice' guy. Rather, she chooses the 'bad ass' guys. The guys who end up breaking her heart and this keeps going while the 'nice' guy just stands by her side all the time.
Is there EVER going to be a realization that she's got someone who cares for her right under her nose?
It seems that the 'nice' guys are everywhere, its just that no one sees them for a particular reason. I've heard that 'nice' guys are 'emotional doormats' used by girls. I've also been told that in the end, 'nice' guys never win because they are too gutless to admit their feelings or that they are too busy helping others find 'happiness'.

can anyone help me answer this question? also...i dont mean to offend anyone. It works both ways for you ladies aswell.

Maybe..."nice" guy you say...well in real life the odds are against most of the anime that usually the nice guy wins.In real life a girl doesn't really appreciates the good things done by a nice guy..it would be one in 100k chance that this type of girl existed that wants to be treated well..so "nice" guys tint to extinct.I was a nice guy and always i treated any girls like himes..but i was used at the end as the "knight-protector" of them only for their troubles and i got only one thing in return SOLITUDE.After this setbacks i became more "normal" and suddenly more awakened..and thats how i ended up with a 1 year relationship with a girl.A more "manly" guy CAN win and will always win..but my belief is that a "nice" guy will always be the idol of many girlies and himes around the world.No more mister "nice guy" As for "bad asses"...man gimme a break they act cool and all mighty when you can act cool and BE cool!!!Cool guy and nice guy CAN be mixed..but cool and bad is like ordering pizza with beans..

Based on my own personal experience as well as that of the people around me in close proximity. No.

First, what's your concept of a real nice guy?

Mine is a person who lives a life based on principles, and does not look down nor step on other people's lives. I believe only a few truly good people exist nowadays. Everything people do are backed by personal agendas, dreams of becoming successful in life. The morals and maxims that humans themselves created are being deviated by their own creators. Sad.

Bottom line, in the current state of the world, good deeds are, most of the time, repaid by evil deeds.

I think they do. I had to work for it though. I think a 'nice' guy has a better chance of getting the girl if he finds one thats levelheaded - not emotionally wrapped up in her own feelings. Of course guys do that too, but for argument's sake we're not gonna get into that.

I think I was lucky enough to find a girl who's sticking with me, even though I'm now far enough away to be in another country. I've actually broken up with her once now - and I've teased her about other girls. But after breaking up - i asked to have her back. she still said yes. We're stronger now. On top of that she's visiting me after schools out.

I don't think its a matter of guys not having the guts to ask a girl out. I personally base starting relationships on whether or not I think she likes me. Also, remember the old spice girls song? "If you wanna be my lover, you gotta get with my friends". I did just that. it provides a lot of insight to the girl and brings you closer to her heart, I believe.

Guys, if your too shy... chances are she's not going to ask you out. if you want that to happen your gonna watch her get taken away.

WTF wait one second... I misunderstood the thread...

Well if it's about girls, there's a lot of other factors other than just being the 'nice guy'.

With my experience however, and the experiences of those people around me, in close proximity, if you are a nice guy and you have good looks, chances are you're gonna get the girl. If you're a nice guy but you're downright fugly [Like me], walk in the rain alone old pal.

Beauty is only skin deep yes, but can the eyes behold the underlying beauty within? I think not. Only a true heart can appreciate such things.

As a "nice guy", I can tell you this. It's never appreciated. Girls simply do not want someone who will fawn over them. IMO most girls want someone who will treat them as an equal, not someone who will put them on a pedestal. There are a lot of them out there that would rather be with a guy who treats them like crap too. Also IMO, the reason that nice guys don't cut it in current day society is because in order for them to find someone who can accept them, they need to find a nice girl. All the other girls are either so stuck up on themselves it's not funny or so suspicious of everything around them that they see the nice guy as an act and are too busy trying to figure out what exactly he wants by being a nice guy rather than simply excepting that he might be a nice guy.

QUOTE (ookamioni @ Oct 31 2007, 08:41 AM) Guys, if your too shy... chances are she's not going to ask you out. if you want that to happen your gonna watch her get taken away.
IMO, if you're a guy and you waiting to be asked out, grow some balls. You are supposed to be the one asking them out. Not the other way around. The worst that can happen is they say no. If they laugh at you or anything like that, it's still no. Embarrassment aside, does it really hurt? You still have all your limbs attached and nothing is broken.

QUOTE (Mowerman @ Oct 31 2007, 09:26 AM) As a "nice guy", I can tell you this. It's never appreciated. Girls simply do not want someone who will fawn over them. IMO most girls want someone who will treat them as an equal, not someone who will put them on a pedestal. There are a lot of them out there that would rather be with a guy who treats them like crap too.
It's a very specific and unorthodox definition of nice you're using here.
One can be nice (and have few problems with girls) without being a lapdog.

I guess also that some boys, some shy or not self-assured boys prefer to blame their niceness rather than their shyness to explain their lack of success.

QUOTE (khael @ Oct 31 2007, 10:58 AM) if you are a nice guy and you have good looks, chances are you're gonna get the girl. If you're a nice guy but you're downright fugly [Like me], walk in the rain alone old pal.
Which brings up the question of: what types of girls do the "nice guys" go after? Perhaps the problem is, "nice guys" and "nice girls" aren't finding each other. Because not all girls are going to walk all over "nice guys".

I have to agree with Dalriada. It seems like this thread is just complaining about the insensitivity of girls, and guys are blaming their failure on females not appreciating "nice guys". This entire idea of a "nice guy" seems so stereotypical and out of TV-reality.

As if a girl has never developed a crush on a male friend, and been turned down because he only sees her as a friend. As if there aren't quiet, shy girls who have difficulty finding boyfriends because they lack self-confidence.

Everyone has to be treated differently. Some girls want to be fawned over. Others hate it. You can't treat people like they're all the same, because they're not. Girls are all looking for something different, so you can't generalize their reactions and desires.

QUOTE (chiisai_hana @ Oct 31 2007, 11:26 AM) Which brings up the question of: what types of girls do the "nice guys" go after? Perhaps the problem is, "nice guys" and "nice girls" aren't finding each other. Because not all girls are going to walk all over "nice guys".

I have to agree with Dalriada. It seems like this thread is just complaining about the insensitivity of girls, and guys are blaming their failure on females not appreciating "nice guys". This entire idea of a "nice guy" seems so stereotypical and out of TV-reality.

As if a girl has never developed a crush on a male friend, and been turned down because he only sees her as a friend. As if there aren't quiet, shy girls who have difficulty finding boyfriends because they lack self-confidence.

Everyone has to be treated differently. Some girls want to be fawned over. Others hate it. You can't treat people like they're all the same, because they're not. Girls are all looking for something different, so you can't generalize their reactions and desires.
[1st]

What type of girls do nice guys go after? How would i know? I know i'm not looking for any. But some of my friends fell for their close friends, one of them the sterotypical childhood friend relationship. No kidding. The guy fell for the girl but the girl didn't. It also happens the other way around.

[3rd]

Yes, the question can be asked the other way around too, what happens to the "nice girls", but what he's asking is about the "nice guy". I think it applies both ways, so the title should be changed. It should be, "Do nice people really win?"

[2nd and 4th paragraph]

This topic presented to us is based on personal experience. Also, as you've seen, there are different answers. Because that "out of tv reality" you call really does happen to some people. But the problem is, you haven't experienced something similar.

[End]

Now, another problem with being nice is that a person tends to become close to you NOT in a romantic way. If you like someone, don't use the become-friends-with-him/her strategy all the time.

As for me, i answered based on the experiences of the people around me, esp. my closest friends IRL. My experience however, is 0, i'm not a "nice guy" and definitely not a good looking one. But that didn't stop me from being close friends with some girls. [Two to be exact. Yeah laugh -_____-; People think i'm weird. Otaku weird.]

-EDITED-

This shouldn't be a poll. It should be a sharing thread, in order to accomodate more answers.

It's an interesting topic the "nice guy..." Though just to touch base I will start by saying that nowadays in today's society that term is not exactly used in context. Instead of thinking of a nice guy as a person who treats a female with respect...

"Not cursing at her, physically hitting her, and listening and taking into account her opinions/feelings etc to name a few..."

Those would probably have been the characteristics of a nice guy in the past when our parents (parent's) were considered young many many moons ago. Today's version of a "nice guy" has different qualities. They are thought of as docile because they are less likely to make a move. Which is why they often fall into the girl's bff role. The girl can still appreciate this nice guy because she can confide in him. There in lies his chance to become more than just friends.

The problem is most of the times (generalization? maybe but just follow me) usually when something is easy to obtain the less appealing it becomes... which the nice guy is because he will never hurt your feelings and is safe he will always be there for you. In other words he can be had... the girl knows it and her friends know it... basically everyone is aware of that fact. Plus you as a female already have that initial connection (empathetic friend) so what is the incentive to change a good thing that already serves a worthwhile function?

So to sum up this thought... "Nice guys" as defined in today's world do serve a purpose to the female gender. If you were to take a poll on what the majority of females want (depending and varying on age groups) I would think you would see traits like mysterious and relatively aggressive in their pursuit appear quite often. Nice guys don't play by these rules and that is why there is truth to that saying that... "Nice guys finish last." As I type this a nice guy just got the girl of his dreams stolen so tragic but true lmao...

QUOTE
Those would probably have been the characteristics of a nice guy in the past when our parents (parent's) were considered young many many moons ago. Today's version of a "nice guy" has different qualities. They are thought of as docile because they are less likely to make a move. Which is why they often fall into the girl's bff role. The girl can still appreciate this nice guy because she can confide in him. There in lies his chance to become more than just friends.


The problem you state here is not the 'nice guy problem'. But how to transform a friendship into a romance.
Some girls are reluctant to go out with a close friend, for various reasons; it has nothing to do with the niceness of the said friend... Except if the boy is also shy and try to become a friend before becoming a boyfriend.


QUOTE
If you were to take a poll on what the majority of females want (depending and varying on age groups) I would think you would see traits like mysterious and relatively aggressive in their pursuit appear quite often.

Well, 'limp' is not a quality, so I understand why few girls would choose it to define their ideal man.

Anyway, when I look at all the couples I've seen during my life, I can't say that the boys were bad guys. Indeed, the great majority was perfectly fine and decent - And I mean they were treating girls, and everyone else, with respect-.
So, what should we conclude?
That all those people were secretly evil and were torturing kitten during the week-end?
Or that 'being nice' is not the key reason of rejection, but is still used as an excuse because the other reasons would be the fault of the rejected guy instead of the one of the girl?

QUOTE (Dalriada @ Oct 31 2007, 02:23 PM) The problem you state here is not the 'nice guy problem'. But how to transform a friendship into a romance.
Some girls are reluctant to go out with a close friend, for various reasons; it has nothing to do with the niceness of the said friend... Except if the boy is also shy and try to become a friend before becoming a boyfriend.
Hmm that was the whole point of the new age "nice guy" description that I described. No female or most females will not just outright deny a nice guy that wasn't the the point I was arguing or trying to convey. When describing this topic the "friend into romance" is basically one of the most important underlying issues of the said "nice guy..." If it wasn't then nice guys wouldn't complain and they would get the girls. Perfect world and the rest is history. Doesn't quite work that way though...

The niceness provides a comfort level. It can often lead to a security that you would not want to hinder no? So in a roundabout way the "niceness" has everything to do with it. It is just a matter if you choose to admit it or not. Sure other factors weigh in but underestimating that as a significant issue... well "nice guys" understand all to well when it comes to the girls they crush on...

hmmm...they are all very good points!!!




im not sure who wrote this, but while i was cruising around on the net for answer, i found this :

It’s amazing that a**holes can get girls. Actually, now that I think of it, it’s not that amazing. They are a**holes at heart, but to meet girls they lavish their undying love. IT’S A CHARADE. They act nice, friendly, and they listen… until they get into what they’re after. Their prey thinks they are in love with them, however when they realize what a**holes their predators really are, they pretend like the a**hole is really nice inside. The girl tries to change the a**hole into a nice guy, but a**holes will always be a**holes. She gets upset and goes to the nice guy to complain about the a**hole. But she claims to love the a**hole… now this is where the theory begins. She doesn’t want to look like she is easy so she wont dump the a**hole right away, instead she will stay with the a**hole. Girls are idiots. They don’t realize that the nice guy has been there all along. He never had to pretend to be a good guy to get girls because he is naturally like that. However, girls don’t see it for some reason or another. They look at the nice guy as a friend, a trusted companion to whom they can tell their sad story to about their a**hole boyfriend. But the nice guy isn’t THAT naïve. He was trying to score with the girl he listens to all along. The problem is that since he is a nice guy he keeps listening. Since girls get attached to things that pay attention to them, they think of the nice guy as a friend. A FRIEND. They don’t say, “Oh he’s hot” or “I want to have his children” about the nice guy, they just want the emotional support. When they get the emotional support from the nice guy, they don’t need it from the a**hole. The nice guy gets the shit end of the stick while the a**hole gets all the action. I am starting to wonder if being a nice guy is really the route to take to get action… I have been down this path for all of my post-pubescent life and it has gotten me NOWHERE… at least not in the women department. Perhaps another reason why girls fall for the a**hole is because a**holes ignore the girl they are with. The women wonder, “Why isn’t he paying attention to me?” so they explore why. They poke and prod and get closer to the a**hole. They start to get easier with each attempt to get closer. The a**hole finally says, “I’ve let this beauty dangle long enough, time to boat this bass”. It is then he puts on his charade and the girl feels like she has won him… even thought all she has won is an a**hole. Once you have gone down the path as a nice guy or a “listener” you can’t turn back. The girl will always go after the a**holes because there are always nice guys there to listen. Once you realize that you are a “listener” you cant do anything about it… just pack up and close shop. There is no way you will get into her pants… ever. There is and never will be a situation where the nice guy will get the girl he has a crush on. It just doesn’t work like that. The girl wont “come to her senses” and realize what an a**hole her boyfriend is like in the movies… instead she will just go after another a**hole, and unless you stop being a nice guy, she will never go after you. Women complain that there are no nice guys in the world. Right. They are obviously not looking hard enough because there are nice guys EVERYWHERE!!!! Girls aren’t looking for nice guys… they say they are but they’re not. They are looking for the perfect a**hole, but there is NO SUCH THING as the perfect a**hole. All in all, the nice guy gets the shaft. To all the girls out there with boyfriends that don’t treat you with respect, that don’t listen to you, and that don’t care about you I say this; look next to you. The guy that has been standing next to you the whole time is the guy you have been looking for. He is what you want your a**hole to be like. He knows more about you than you know about yourself… because he has listened to it all."

Sorry for the language, i tried to blank out most of it. But is what he really says for real? the 'nice' guy always will be a friend to her...regardless of what the situation is?

QUOTE (mibukyo @ Nov 01 2007, 12:11 AM) Sorry for the language, i tried to blank out most of it. But is what he really says for real? the 'nice' guy always will be a friend to her...regardless of what the situation is?
It's just misogynous bull from a frustrated guy to explain his lack of success.


If only his rant was sustained by some facts or some good arguments (other than 'girls are idiots'), one could try to discuss about it. But no, it's an unadulterated piece of crap, so it's not worth of it.

QUOTE (Dalriada @ Nov 01 2007, 12:45 AM) It's just misogynous bullshit from a frustrated guy to explain his lack of success.


If only his rant was sustained by some facts or some good arguments (other than 'girls are idiots'), one could try to discuss about it. But no, it's an unadulterated piece of crap, so it's not worth of it.
I totally agree... This one is just full of prejudice, a perfect troll.

My suggestion, base your decision on your own experiences. Experience is the best teacher, or so does the cliche' go, but it is proven effective. Don't read pieces of sh*t like that and base your judgment on that alone. It's much better to go with what you have experienced first hand, OR the experiences of those in close proximity which is second hand. Or you could do it the other way around, stop speculating and just go with it, win or lose. Charge head on without thinking, and if you fail, i'm pretty sure you won't be as depressed since you didn't think twice at all and you just did it on impulse.

Good luck man, or whoever's the nice guy you're talking about.

Side note:
I'm impressed that there are posters that know what the word "misogynous" means.

Anyway, I think the 'nice guy' situation has a lot to be said for. As a nice guy, we don't need to get a girl that doesn't suit our needs, you know, the kind that can appreciate the nice guy. While it is true that more often than I'd like, the a**holes do tend to get the girl like that copypaste rant said, that just means that we, the nice guys, look better and more desiarable*.

It's only a theory of mine, but I think that nice guys are put on the earth as a way of saying, "you sould've choosen batchlor 1" to the girls that think what they want is what they need. If you're in highschool and you're watching the travisty that is, jocks getting a nice girl but still being jocks, well, that's life. Jocks and jerks win all the time. There's no way around that fact my friend. But in the 'real world' like what I have to deal with every day, women are mature enough to know what they need vs what they want.

It sucks, yes, but remember, out there, people like the nice guys and girls rule the world because they are nice to the people that mattter.

Don't stop being a nice guy because you want to get laid before you graduate, keep it up and you'll be a lot happier in the long run.

QUOTE (khael @ Oct 31 2007, 02:20 PM)This topic presented to us is based on personal experience. Also, as you've seen, there are different answers. Because that "out of tv reality" you call really does happen to some people. But the problem is, you haven't experienced something similar.
Just to clarify, the personal experience themselves I don't think are wrong. Obviously, I cannot judge what actually happened to you. But the idea of a "nice guy" is something stereotypical/out of TV reality. We all understand this notion of a "nice guy" through a common experience, in this case probably media because we don't know each other personally. But as was mentioned earlier, what exactly is the definition of "nice" in this context? It's quite objective, I think.

I think Byproduct brings up a good point about maturity and different situations. Like I said before, some people in this thread seem to be putting a lot of blame for their lack of success on girls themselves. You cannot assume that all girls want the same thing! It would be like, if I said all guys are shallow and only interested in girls for sex. Undoubtedly, someone would raise an objection about that because not all guys are the same.

Concerning mibukyo's post and any other bashing/language issues, please be aware of forum rules. Censoring out a few letters does not make it okay to swear on the forums, especially when you do so more than once in a post.

QUOTE (mibukyo @ Nov 01 2007, 12:11 AM) hmmm...they are all very good points!!!




im not sure who wrote this, but while i was cruising around on the net for answer, i found this :

It’s amazing that a**holes can get girls. Actually, now that I think of it, it’s not that amazing. They are a**holes at heart, but to meet girls they lavish their undying love. IT’S A CHARADE. They act nice, friendly, and they listen… until they get into what they’re after. Their prey thinks they are in love with them, however when they realize what a**holes their predators really are, they pretend like the a**hole is really nice inside. The girl tries to change the a**hole into a nice guy, but a**holes will always be a**holes. She gets upset and goes to the nice guy to complain about the a**hole. But she claims to love the a**hole… now this is where the theory begins. She doesn’t want to look like she is easy so she wont dump the a**hole right away, instead she will stay with the a**hole. Girls are idiots. They don’t realize that the nice guy has been there all along. He never had to pretend to be a good guy to get girls because he is naturally like that. However, girls don’t see it for some reason or another. They look at the nice guy as a friend, a trusted companion to whom they can tell their sad story to about their a**hole boyfriend. But the nice guy isn’t THAT naïve. He was trying to score with the girl he listens to all along. The problem is that since he is a nice guy he keeps listening. Since girls get attached to things that pay attention to them, they think of the nice guy as a friend. A FRIEND. They don’t say, “Oh he’s hot” or “I want to have his children” about the nice guy, they just want the emotional support. When they get the emotional support from the nice guy, they don’t need it from the a**hole. The nice guy gets the shit end of the stick while the a**hole gets all the action. I am starting to wonder if being a nice guy is really the route to take to get action… I have been down this path for all of my post-pubescent life and it has gotten me NOWHERE… at least not in the women department. Perhaps another reason why girls fall for the a**hole is because a**holes ignore the girl they are with. The women wonder, “Why isn’t he paying attention to me?” so they explore why. They poke and prod and get closer to the a**hole. They start to get easier with each attempt to get closer. The a**hole finally says, “I’ve let this beauty dangle long enough, time to boat this bass”. It is then he puts on his charade and the girl feels like she has won him… even thought all she has won is an a**hole. Once you have gone down the path as a nice guy or a “listener” you can’t turn back. The girl will always go after the a**holes because there are always nice guys there to listen. Once you realize that you are a “listener” you cant do anything about it… just pack up and close shop. There is no way you will get into her pants… ever. There is and never will be a situation where the nice guy will get the girl he has a crush on. It just doesn’t work like that. The girl wont “come to her senses” and realize what an a**hole her boyfriend is like in the movies… instead she will just go after another a**hole, and unless you stop being a nice guy, she will never go after you. Women complain that there are no nice guys in the world. Right. They are obviously not looking hard enough because there are nice guys EVERYWHERE!!!! Girls aren’t looking for nice guys… they say they are but they’re not. They are looking for the perfect a**hole, but there is NO SUCH THING as the perfect a**hole. All in all, the nice guy gets the shaft. To all the girls out there with boyfriends that don’t treat you with respect, that don’t listen to you, and that don’t care about you I say this; look next to you. The guy that has been standing next to you the whole time is the guy you have been looking for. He is what you want your a**hole to be like. He knows more about you than you know about yourself… because he has listened to it all."

Sorry for the language, i tried to blank out most of it. But is what he really says for real? the 'nice' guy always will be a friend to her...regardless of what the situation is?
that's about the sum of it, it can easily go both ways too, as someone had mentioned before in this topic, "there's no real nice guy nor nice woman, just nice people". if your looking for the negative, you'll absolutely find it, because thats just reaching.

and if you spend too much time contemplating the values or morals of an individual, then your just kidding yourself, and again, your reaching; most likely for something that isn't in your ability to understand or have.

my personal opinion? yeah, nice people can be in the spotlight and be successful, but being assertive, and having a strong sense of yourself, have nothing to do with being nice.

the term "nice" is taken too loosely now-a-days, i consider myself a nice person; but i don't expect others to see that in me, and use that as an initial bases. in relationships, you could just be genuine, without having to put on some type of show to empress him/her.

so i guess the real question is: whats your perspective of "nice"?

I'd say that the nice guy wins, usually.

It depends on who the nice guy is after, and if the nice guy is bold enough to be frank on the way he feels with the girl he has feelings toward.

If a nice guy is after a bad girl looking for a bad boy, then of course he's going to fail. But reputation is everything, and a girl looking for a nice guy will hear about the nice guy (hopefully), but usually it's going to be up to the guy to express interest.

QUOTE (chiisai_hana @ Nov 01 2007, 01:44 PM) Just to clarify, the personal experience themselves I don't think are wrong. Obviously, I cannot judge what actually happened to you. But the idea of a "nice guy" is something stereotypical/out of TV reality. We all understand this notion of a "nice guy" through a common experience, in this case probably media because we don't know each other personally. But as was mentioned earlier, what exactly is the definition of "nice" in this context? It's quite objective, I think.

I think Byproduct brings up a good point about maturity and different situations. Like I said before, some people in this thread seem to be putting a lot of blame for their lack of success on girls themselves. You cannot assume that all girls want the same thing! It would be like, if I said all guys are shallow and only interested in girls for sex. Undoubtedly, someone would raise an objection about that because not all guys are the same.

Concerning mibukyo's post and any other bashing/language issues, please be aware of forum rules. Censoring out a few letters does not make it okay to swear on the forums, especially when you do so more than once in a post.
My mistake on that part then. Sorry.
And also, my mistake on generalizing my 2nd post too much.

But you can't blame people on basing their judgments on their own experiences. I mean, if i had known this guy and something similar happened to him, wouldn't you tell him to be careful or give him a warning? If we had known the status of the poster, we would've been able to give a much better answer i guess, but the fact is we don't. So i guess the only answer we can give is one based purely on experience. Besides, when did i say girls wanted the same thing? I don't recall posting something like that. It's pretty obvious to me that there's a thing called personal preference and perception. As for the guys are only interested in girls for sex, correction, A LOT of guys are only interested in women for sex.


QUOTE It's only a theory of mine, but I think that nice guys are put on the earth as a way of saying, "you sould've choosen batchlor 1" to the girls that think what they want is what they need. If you're in highschool and you're watching the travisty that is, jocks getting a nice girl but still being jocks, well, that's life. Jocks and jerks win all the time. There's no way around that fact my friend. But in the 'real world' like what I have to deal with every day, women are mature enough to know what they need vs what they want.

My point exactly, jocks and jerks win most of the time [In my world at least, but i don't think all of the time though], and most of the people i've encountered are immature, or just downright irrational because of love. Another problem with this is most people [Based on experience] tend to go after their "IDEAL" guy/girl rather than what's "REAL", but that's for another discussion.
So anyways, [Off topic] if i get the chance to leave this slum country, i'd gladly leave.