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#181 chiisai_hana

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Posted 09 June 2008 - 01:00 AM

QUOTE (EricAnimeFreak @ Jun 08 2008, 03:06 PM)
Well i picked up anime which was differnt, aimed at adults primaily, runs in a series, more realistic, it was just plain bettter.

I would say it seems to be targeted more at children or teens. You don't find too many anime dealing with main characters who are 20+, at least not that I'm aware of (manga seems to be a different story). But I would agree that people here don't always give it a chance. Then again, with what has been shown on television, no wonder. Dubbers had a habit of dumbing down shows to make them appeal more to children (making characters younger, erasing violence/blood, etc


QUOTE (EricAnimeFreak @ Jun 08 2008, 03:06 PM)

You will find comics in america were origanally used politically or point out blunders in society, not so much art as it was just funny and another way to bring you news.
Japanese manga was born out of a need for porn, yes porn.

I'd be really curious to see some evidence to support this claim, because that's the first I've heard of it being created for porn (and as this is the Thoughtful Section, everyone is reminded to use evidence to back up such claims)

As for whether it's an art form ... maybe to us, yes, and for what we pay, who wouldn't treat them as such? But if you lived in the society, where that was the main daily style, would you find it that special? I've heard people express shock that the Japanese just throw out manga issues with their garbage, but would people be so shocked if someone in America did that with American comics?
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#182 monsta

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Posted 09 June 2008 - 01:01 AM

QUOTE (Dalriada @ Jun 09 2008, 12:45 AM)
HAHAHAHAHAHA !
Non, serieusement...
We've understand you're an anime integrist, but try to be a bit more subtle. Most animes are aimed at kids or teenagers and few even try to be realistic.

Criticise the opinion not the person! wink.gif

QUOTE (EricAnimeFreak @ Jun 08 2008, 08:06 PM)
Now i believe adults have trouble defining anime because they refuse to even try it, that's my argument. It's a strict argument, it's not a matter of what anime or cartoon is being watched, but their upbringing and attitudes towards it.

I think most people refuse to try anime because they think it is like Disney. Like you say later on you hate Disney. Now if someone wanted you to watch something that look like a Disney production would you watch it? Probably not, but even if you did you have to understand that some people are stubborn. They are convinced that anime will be a children's cartoon and will refuse to watch it despite assurances to the contrary. It's a problem I had in the past.

QUOTE (EricAnimeFreak)
And yeah i know you guys are going to quote and criticize me, but this is what i have observed in malls, at my on home, at school and college, observation is the basis for any scientific analysis, and i take up any endeavour scientifically.

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QUOTE (EricAnimeFreak)
You will find comics in America were originally used politically or point out blunders in society, not so much art as it was just funny and another way to bring you news.

It's called satire and it's been around for ages. In fact it is more common in periods of high censorship where the artists have to hide their messages. This could be a case of cartoons/comics being aimed at an adult audience.

QUOTE (EricAnimeFreak)
Japanese manga was born out of a need for porn, yes porn. And due to this it has always been oritented in the majority towards conservative adults. It has always been a artform that is more then news, but a greta medium to tell a great story.

I'm not sure if modern manga came about from the need for porn but more as a way of expressing the Japanese changing attitudes. I will agree that America had a strong influence on manga's beginnings.

As for a medium to tell a great story this is more tricky. I believe its contemporaries at the time (i.e Superman) had plots that were just as complex as Astro Boy. Off course over time the plots may have evolved and became more advanced than their American equivalents. I am far from certain if this was really the case as my knowledge on manga/American comic history is rather sketchy! sad.gif

QUOTE (EricAnimeFreak)
Also, i hate disney

Blasphemy! I love Disney! tongue.gif Well only the old school animated stuff. Not the modern computerised stuff you see today.
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QUOTE (Dalriada)
I'll pass on your claim that mangas are art while comics aren't. It's unsupported and quite unsupportable. And the last paragraph doesn't really make sense, sorry.

The line between art and trash is getting increasing blurred these days. I went to the Tate Modern not too long ago. Quite frankly some of the pieces looked like they were done by children! Off course they come under the guises of surreal or modern art. Regardless I still question the pieces... dry.gif

#183 EricAnimeFreak

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Posted 09 June 2008 - 02:33 AM

Man i have to say i actully love all the criticism. It points out how i can improve my debate over this controversial subject. The idea that anything should be prejudged, is one that has been going on for ages, and not just for anime. Art too is often ridiculed for being "no good" or not what the community expects, so the definition of art is too broad of a undefineable term to use as an arugment i soppuse?

As for disney, i think i am about the same, if i'll watch any, its the oldschool stuff, not the newstuff. Even if i hate disney, dosen't neccesarilly mean i hate its movies, it just i would choose anything else over it, but i might watch is to reminance with my bro + sis.

I wish people weren't as stubborn as they are, i soppuse the orignal topic of the thread, as to why adults don't get, anime. Is one of bias and stubborness.

While satires where orignally used to show adult messages, they were ussually in a mocking, or political sense. For instance the cartoons depicting the very real crisis of the 1930's market crash.

I will not even try to list about things i dont know, sorry i am not eurpeon, i don't follow eurepeon comics or cartoons, maybe thier closer to "my" definition of anime.

As for American comics, there are some that have devoloped up to the standards, "devloped", most animes started knowing they were going to develop.

Thanks for pointing out i am a anime integrist, now i can feel assured that i can be mocked in one way more then just being an over hypocritical otaku... lol

Also Somone asked about proof that manga has its roots in pornography. Well here's a link to wikepedia. Shunga was an art form used for erotic pictures since the 16th centuries and as such these artist did paly a roll in developing the art that became manga, and yes H-manga also known as Hentia, which is a genre of anime as we all agree, even if frowned upon. That said, lets continue to disscuss why parents or adults alike just can't seem to watch one of the best forms of enetertianment around.

The art of shunga provided an inspiration for the Showa and Heisei, or modern, period art known in the Western world as hentai, and known (formally) in Japan as 'jū hachi kin' (literally, "18-restricted", or adult-only) anime and manga. Like shunga, hentai is sexually explicit in its imagery.

Shunga finally succumbed to the introduction of erotic photographs at the beginning of the Meiji era (1868—1912).

Link: en wikipedia org/wiki/Shunga Add the dots
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#184 khael

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Posted 09 June 2008 - 05:24 AM

QUOTE
Also Somone asked about proof that manga has its roots in pornography. Well here's a link to wikepedia. Shunga was an art form used for erotic pictures since the 16th centuries and as such these artist did paly a roll in developing the art that became manga, and yes H-manga also known as Hentia, which is a genre of anime as we all agree, even if frowned upon. That said, lets continue to disscuss why parents or adults alike just can't seem to watch one of the best forms of enetertianment around.

The art of shunga provided an inspiration for the Showa and Heisei, or modern, period art known in the Western world as hentai, and known (formally) in Japan as 'jū hachi kin' (literally, "18-restricted", or adult-only) anime and manga. Like shunga, hentai is sexually explicit in its imagery.


But don't other countries have a history of "erotic art" [per se] too? I also don't get the connection of Shunga and Manga. Besides, look at the manga link in the same site you mentioned and you'll see:

QUOTE
The first view emphasizes events occurring during and after the U.S. Occupation of Japan (1945–1952), and stresses that manga was strongly shaped by U.S. cultural influences, including U.S. comics brought to Japan by the GIs and by images and themes from U.S. television, film, and cartoons (especially Disney).[4][7] Alternately, other writers such as Frederik L. Schodt,[7][8] Kinko Ito,[27] and Adam L. Kern[28][29] stress continuity of Japanese cultural and aesthetic traditions as central to the history of manga.

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#185 Dalriada

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Posted 09 June 2008 - 06:54 AM

QUOTE
You don't find too many anime dealing with main characters who are 20+, at least not that I'm aware of (manga seems to be a different story).


Indeed, I've read several articles on best-selling mangas starring employees in big companies, dealing with problems an employee in a big company can encounter (probably in a more romantic way I guess, or it would be quite boring).
However, it seems those mangas, aimed 'strictly' at adults, are seldom translated and almost never turned into an anime.

-------------

QUOTE
The line between art and trash is getting increasing blurred these days. I went to the Tate Modern not too long ago. Quite frankly some of the pieces looked like they were done by children! Off course they come under the guises of surreal or modern art. Regardless I still question the pieces... dry.gif


I was more thinking of the difference between art and industry.
We all remember the infamous Dragon Ball GT, created just because Dragon Ball was a well-known franchise and it would sell even if the serie was crap. Or authors of some famous mangas allegedly changing the story to please the fans.
Those practices are not really 'artful'.
And I'm not thinking that US comics are better. After all, we had a wonderful 'The superman comics are not selling really well... Let's kill him, he will ressurect later' moment.

About modern art... I don't like it, but it's often far better with a good guide who can explain what the artist tried to do.

QUOTE
Off course over time the plots may have evolved and became more advanced than their American equivalents. I am far from certain if this was really the case as my knowledge on manga/American comic history is rather sketchy! sad.gif


My knowledge isn't really better but I feel that you're a bit injust.
First point : American comics isn't limited to what we can imagine, i.e. the twenty pages issue of Superman. There's also what people call in a pretentious way "graphic novels", with artists like Frank Miller, Alan Moore or Neil Gaiman (probably a lot of others that I don't know).
Second point : Even in the 'more stereotypical' comics, the plot is quite complex, if you think that almost all the franchises are related. Well, it's not exactly true. You have a DC-verse where all the DC heroes live, a Marvel-verse and several smaller ones. But when a major event appears, like the recent Civil War or World War Hulk, the story becomes more complex than your average shounen manga (and I'm not saying it's a good thing wink.gif). We're not in a monster-of-the-week situation.

-------------------------

QUOTE

Also Somone asked about proof that manga has its roots in pornography. Well here's a link to wikepedia. Shunga was an art form used for erotic pictures since the 16th centuries and as such these artist did paly a roll in developing the art that became manga, and yes H-manga also known as Hentia, which is a genre of anime as we all agree, even if frowned upon. That said, lets continue to disscuss why parents or adults alike just can't seem to watch one of the best forms of enetertianment around.


So, shunga are to ukiyo-e what hentai are to manga then.
It shows one thing : that when a media is available, people will do porn with it, no exception (you'll even find antic vases with porn).

But it doesn't show anything proving that manga has been fathered by shunga.

QUOTE

While satires where orignally used to show adult messages, they were ussually in a mocking, or political sense. For instance the cartoons depicting the very real crisis of the 1930's market crash.


If you see no political subtext or criticisms of the society in Gits or even Code Geass, be more careful. wink.gif



A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds, adored by little statesmen and philosophers and divines.
Ralph Waldo Emerson

#186 monsta

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Posted 09 June 2008 - 12:57 PM

QUOTE (EricAnimeFreak)
I wish people weren't as stubborn as they are, i suppose the original topic of the thread, as to why adults don't get, anime. Is one of bias and stubbornness.

I think peoples' priorities and cultural differences also plays a part. For example I have a sister who liked anime. Never watches it now because they put other things ahead. She would rather go the cinema, read a book than watch anime. I'm sure many of the retired members of FansubTV experienced the same thing.

Then there is are the cultural differences between Japan and the Western media. In anime what is deemed as fanservice (panty shots, close up of breasts) maybe seen as soft porn. Couple this with the girls often being young (school children) and it will be controversial (some would argue paedophilia). Imagine if someone's first exposure to anime was a series like Kanokon? What impression will it give of anime? These first impressions will give people the wrong idea and they are often the people most critical of anime.

The same problem occurs in Hollywood (some places find the violence/sex too much). Only difference is the Hollywood industry is bigger than the anime one so it tends to be overlooked.

QUOTE (Dalriada @ Jun 09 2008, 07:54 AM)
I was more thinking of the difference between art and industry.
We all remember the infamous Dragon Ball GT, created just because Dragon Ball was a well-known franchise and it would sell even if the serie was crap. Or authors of some famous mangas allegedly changing the story to please the fans.
Those practices are not really 'artful'.
And I'm not thinking that US comics are better. After all, we had a wonderful 'The superman comics are not selling really well... Let's kill him, he will ressurect later' moment.

About modern art... I don't like it, but it's often far better with a good guide who can explain what the artist tried to do.

It was a semi-joke but it also raises the point that art can be purely subjective. Like you mention in your examples of Dragonball GT and Superman what you consider trash maybe seen as art to a hard core fan. I believe the same could apply to mangas.

About modern art... I can understand that guides can help but if the standard gets to the point where I begin saying I could draw better (and I'm rubbish at art) I feel it starts becoming pretentious. I mean why can't I draw a scribble and make some cuckoo story that it represents the confusion of my life? user posted image

QUOTE (Dalriada)
If you see no political subtext or criticisms of the society in Gits or even Code Geass, be more careful. wink.gif

I believe EricAnimeFreak is saying anime is an extension of satire. As satire is often geared at adults the same could apply to anime. I think that's what they are getting at...

If that is the case I would generally disagree. Although many series like Code Geass have political discussions impeded into the plot it is often simplified for the sake of entertainment. I'm not saying it is bad thing but it generally alienates the older audience in favour of the teenage market.

#187 Dalriada

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Posted 09 June 2008 - 06:25 PM

QUOTE
It was a semi-joke but it also raises the point that art can be purely subjective. Like you mention in your examples of Dragonball GT and Superman what you consider trash maybe seen as art to a hard core fan. I believe the same could apply to mangas.


I'm not saying Dragon Ball GT or Superman are trash (even if it's true for DBGT). Just that it's a business, and it follows the 'rules' of business more than the 'rules' of art.
Of course, business and art are not uncompatible.

QUOTE
If that is the case I would generally disagree. Although many series like Code Geass have political discussions impeded into the plot it is often simplified for the sake of entertainment. I'm not saying it is bad thing but it generally alienates the older audience in favour of the teenage market.


As far as I've understand, EricAnimeFreak said that american comics have been pointing out some blunders in our society (The X-men from the 70's was totally about racism, for example).
Of course, they are neither answers to our societal problems (societal... does it exist in english ? It's the trendy word to say social, but without the leftist aspect, here), nor supported studies, but more blunt questions or affirmations.

My point was that mangas and animes do exactly the same, with more or less success (the more being, for example, the ecological message in most Miyazaki's movies).


A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds, adored by little statesmen and philosophers and divines.
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#188 CodeGeassWatchingIdiot

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Posted 15 November 2008 - 03:31 AM

its like trying to teach an adult that family guy or south park is more then just constant swearing its jokes that have actual meaning, also some animes like code geass and bleach have a couple themes that could appeal only to teens, anyway I think theres mainly a point i have to make that the misunderstanding between adults and youth will go on forever, if any of us younger users on here ever have kids someday we'll problably not understand them also, in my opinion this is the hardest thing in life i have to cope with

#189 sayonara solitia

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Posted 19 November 2008 - 11:38 AM

american comic to me is pretty crap and they have the shittest pictures EVER.... its just about some random crap ... its nothing compared to japanese animations... they have decent themes... unlike Simpsons where the show is just stupid with dumb jokes made by dumb and uneducated ppl...

(no offence)

the problem with MANY AMERICAN show is they ALWAYS HAVE GUNS, weapons, and DEATH and typical Villans (typical antagonists ...) as a overall theme... they are likeee so DAMNNNNN repetetive... i mean look at CSI, 24, LOST, LAW and Order, Superman, Spiderman.... american comics are like always BAD GUYS VS GOOD GUYS (EG IRON MAN)... hahaha so typical and so BORING...

#190 Gustav1976

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Posted 19 November 2008 - 12:03 PM

I would have to point out the one fact in life which is that in western cultures up until the recent few decades when japanese animation was introduced to the western public 99% of all animation was aimed at children. Even the Disney Classics were aimed at children and adults only watched them as they were the chaperones for their children; and, as such that perception of animation is prevailent in all western cultures. That being siad even the few western animations that were designed for adults (such as Betty Boop which origfinally intended for adults only) has been relegated to that of children's entertainment due to the change in petceptions of normal and appropriate behaviour in society. With Betty Boops for example when it was frist aired it was at 11pm due to it's depiction of a flirtateous female in an outfit which at the time was considered too revealing for children.
Even Disney shows which were at the time well made are no longer considered to be films which adults would enjoy on their own due to them being based on fairy-tales which we are taught to not believe in once we get older. In a similar vein even fairy-tales have changed in regards to public perception, when many were first written they were considered quite dark but over the centuries have become mmore light-hearted whereas a great deal of eastern fairytales are still quite dark in nature having changed very little.
Back on topic, it is generally down to the fact that up until recently animation has been purely at children that western adults have difficulty accepting that animation can be anything more than children's entertainment.
An appropriate anology to the problem would be what happened when science suggested that the Earth went round the Sun and that the Earth was NOT (as was believed at the time) the centre of the universe. In the end it will have to be we the newer generations that have to change the perceptions of the public gradually by eeaching our children.
Regarding anime such as GitS and Akira and even Genocyber most of the darker anime have references to events in Japanese history that had an impact in their culture. Examples of this are the destruction of Tokyo by a large "explosion" in Akira and in Genocyber (with a reference to an incredible power created by Man that has the potential to destroy it) and many of the events in GitS:2nd Gig are direct references to events in Japanese history regarding revolutions, changes in society and other political and societal issues in the past.

#191 CodeGeassWatchingIdiot

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Posted 20 November 2008 - 01:35 AM

QUOTE (Gustav1976 @ Nov 19 2008, 06:03 AM)
I would have to point out the one fact in life which is that in western cultures up until the recent few decades when japanese animation was introduced to the western public 99% of all animation was aimed at children. Even the Disney Classics were aimed at children and adults only watched them as they were the chaperones for their children; and, as such that perception of animation is prevailent in all western cultures. That being siad even the few western animations that were designed for adults (such as Betty Boop which origfinally intended for adults only) has been relegated to that of children's entertainment due to the change in petceptions of normal and appropriate behaviour in society. With Betty Boops for example when it was frist aired it was at 11pm due to it's depiction of a flirtateous female in an outfit which at the time was considered too revealing for children.
Even Disney shows which were at the time well made are no longer considered to be films which adults would enjoy on their own due to them being based on fairy-tales which we are taught to not believe in once we get older. In a similar vein even fairy-tales have changed in regards to public perception, when many were first written they were considered quite dark but over the centuries have become mmore light-hearted whereas a great deal of eastern fairytales are still quite dark in nature having changed very little.
Back on topic, it is generally down to the fact that up until recently animation has been purely at children that western adults have difficulty accepting that animation can be anything more than children's entertainment.
An appropriate anology to the problem would be what happened when science suggested that the Earth went round the Sun and that the Earth was NOT (as was believed at the time) the centre of the universe. In the end it will have to be we the newer generations that have to change the perceptions of the public gradually by eeaching our children.
Regarding anime such as GitS and Akira and even Genocyber most of the darker anime have references to events in Japanese history that had an impact in their culture. Examples of this are the destruction of Tokyo by a large "explosion" in Akira and in Genocyber (with a reference to an incredible power created by Man that has the potential to destroy it) and many of the events in GitS:2nd Gig are direct references to events in Japanese history regarding revolutions, changes in society and other political and societal issues in the past.

basically what i had in mind, except i would prefer not to compare usa vs asia as an east v. west kind of thing, i would kind of compare it as european/north and south america v. asia, another reason why those two cultures are distinct is because those are the cultures that were sealed off from each other(native american culture and tradition was killed mostly when the europeans arrived) , anyway many animes targeted at adults in the us were originally targeted toward teens in japan(i.e. bleach), however that is a fault that no one watches adult swim because major channels dont show anime(except for saturday mornings where american animations and animes are mixed and edited so no little kid can tell the difference(i apologize for this run-on sentence however you can understand me right?) americans are generally new to western cultures as many middle-aged or so today grew up with very few animes which were americanized even more than animes are today and another thing, there are very few animations produced here intended for adults(i frankly enjoy them) so theres all i have to add to this topic

#192 Maiku_Ando

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Posted 20 November 2008 - 02:10 PM

I wanted to get involved in this as its an interesting subject to me, I do however apologise for not reading all of the previous 10 pages, I have read a few and hope I caught the general flow right, please forgive if I didnt.

I think it is not as simple as an adults/teens split, as has been said some adults do like anime and appreciate it, I am also an adult and love it, although it could be argued I'm just an Otaku. I think the difference, is actually in a persons perception, generally I think the younger generation are more open minded and more willing to experiment, the difference of age, is effectively wisdom, which is nothing more than experience quantified. For example, if you have had nothing other than all your animation experiences involving children's programs, you assume an anime is also of the same.

The real interesting part comes when you "force" this type of person to sit and watch an anime. What happens then? I have seen a change to the point where they have been surprised by it, and accept the difference, they had no further interest to watch more, but they had accepted the idea.

Anime is often a fictional story, therefore is it not escapism and/or fantasy? So look at it not as an animated media for a moment but as a fantasy story, how many adults, or shall we say middle aged, would read fantasy? This is a similar point, a fantasy novel manages to achieve a higher age range in western culture because it is a "novel" but even these have acceptance issues like anime does.

Anime has a harder time because it is "animated", ie Manga I think is actually accepted more as potentially adult suitable, at least in the UK, because of limited experience with adult comics there. I dont know about the US as I have never lived there.

But... do remember that in Japan as well that Anime and manga is not liked by all, it is easy to assume its popular - why? because most of our experience is through anime and manga itself - Think Nogizaka Haruka no himitsu - this shows us how anime and manga can be so hated, although the anime "wins" in this, it kinda would do, its self promotion. I have a Japanese friend who refused to visit a maid cafe, he was so adamant he would have left and refused to enter, and we were not even in Japan. Yet, another Japanese colleague, who is older and female, was actually happy to chat about ackihabara and maid cafes.

The points made by Gustav and CodeGeassWatchingIdiot also apply to what I was saying about the wisdom and experience, the UK has only recently started showing anime as anime, ie its a Japanese animated show, not an American cartoon - previously the UK only showed anime during the childrens slot on TV, which helped adults believe it was for children. It was shown along with WB and Disney shows! Now they have AnimeCentral - which shows at night, i think its like 10pm till 5am. Not many adults watch that slot either.

Edit
I forgot to say that many adults, and my evidence is based on the people I talked about above, also take the Simpsons, South Park, Family guy, Futureama etc as cartoons, only after having them sit through south park (and this was funny) did the reality of it being a 100% adult cartoon sink in.

Edited by Maiku_Ando, 20 November 2008 - 02:19 PM.


#193 monsta

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Posted 22 December 2008 - 07:25 AM

QUOTE (Maiku_Ando @ Nov 20 2008, 02:10 PM)
I think it is not as simple as an adults/teens split, as has been said some adults do like anime and appreciate it, I am also an adult and love it, although it could be argued I'm just an Otaku. I think the difference, is actually in a persons perception, generally I think the younger generation are more open minded and more willing to experiment, the difference of age, is effectively wisdom, which is nothing more than experience quantified. For example, if you have had nothing other than all your animation experiences involving children's programs, you assume an anime is also of the same.

I think it is more a cultural thing than a age related issue. In many Western the predominating belief is cartoons (yes animes are cartoons!) are for children. Off course not everyone believes this, if that were the case there wouldn't be any anime fans! It's just a dominating few. In Japan, anime (and mangas) are seen as something that caters for all ages. That doesn't apply in Western countries and probably results in all a lot of the friction in accepting anime. What's more many adults expect anime to be very similar to Western cartoons and are often shocked with the amount of sex and violence depicted. It would explain why anime is often seen in a negative light.

Another problem, many television networks only broadcast anime that is similar to other cartoons which perpetuates the idea that anime is for kids. Pokemon and to a lesser extent Naruto are good examples...

As the anime industry grows it has become more commercialised and is more about pleasing the fans needs. This often comes at the cost of a good story with cliché recycled ideas used, not to mention fanservice. Many of these things are catered for a teenage audience and this could explain why people have trouble identifying the intended audience. It's not for children but it's not really for adults either. There are some adult anime series (I do not include hentai!) but they are the exception rather than the norm.

Then again as anime gains more exposure outside Japan these views are gradually changing. People are beginning to grasp the true meanings of anime a little better and understand anime is fundamentally different to Western animation. Hmm but I should stress the little part! tongue.gif

#194 Dalriada

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Posted 22 December 2008 - 02:31 PM

QUOTE
I think it is not as simple as an adults/teens split, as has been said some adults do like anime and appreciate it, I am also an adult and love it, although it could be argued I'm just an Otaku.


I'm also an adult liking animes (less and less by the way. Am I becoming mature ? I don't think so. Are animes repeating themselved -with of course some exceptions- ? I bet on that).
But we don't matter here. We're exceptions (an exception more common than before, but stil...).

By the way, the young ones are more open-minded ? I don't buy that. They are more open-minded to what they like, maybe. But that's not open-mindness.


QUOTE

Anime is often a fictional story, therefore is it not escapism and/or fantasy? So look at it not as an animated media for a moment but as a fantasy story, how many adults, or shall we say middle aged, would read fantasy? This is a similar point, a fantasy novel manages to achieve a higher age range in western culture because it is a "novel" but even these have acceptance issues like anime does.


Star Wars, CSI : Miami or Melrose Place are also escapism. You don't even need to reach fantasy to sustain your point.
I'll explain later my "theory" about the difference between those series and animes

------------------------
QUOTE

I think it is more a cultural thing than a age related issue. In many Western the predominating belief is cartoons (yes animes are cartoons!) are for children. Off course not everyone believes this, if that were the case there wouldn't be any anime fans! It's just a dominating few.


I think it's more that people not used to animes can't... sympathize with the characters.
To appreciate a story, you must feel something for the characters. Either you like them, you want them to live, you hate them.. It doesn't matter, as long as you feel something. A show where all you feel when seeing the characters is "meh", you won't watch it for long.

And that's the problem. It may be harder to feel something for an animated character than for a "real" fictional characters. It's just at a border. Not imaginary enough to be a novel character, not real enough to be a live action serie character.
I can see why people dislike animes, if the can't feel anything.
It's also why some people don't like science-fiction. It doesn't feel real, therefore it's awfully bland.

QUOTE

As the anime industry grows it has become more commercialised and is more about pleasing the fans needs. This often comes at the cost of a good story with cliché recycled ideas used, not to mention fanservice. Many of these things are catered for a teenage audience and this could explain why people have trouble identifying the intended audience. It's not for children but it's not really for adults either. There are some adult anime series (I do not include hentai!) but they are the exception rather than the norm.


I've been watching animes in the mid 80's -I was really young ^^- ( with Tetsuwan Atomu, Captain Tsubasa, Cat's eyes, Kimagure Orange Road).
And well, it's true that it's always the same crap, again and again, with some jewels inside.
So I guess a lot of animes are products with a "best used before" date. They are supposed to work for a few years, and after that a clone will appear and work another two or three years. That would explain why adults "quit" animes when they grow old.
A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds, adored by little statesmen and philosophers and divines.
Ralph Waldo Emerson

#195 monsta

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Posted 23 December 2008 - 08:58 PM

QUOTE (Dalriada @ Dec 22 2008, 02:31 PM)
I think it's more that people not used to animes can't... sympathize with the characters.
To appreciate a story, you must feel something for the characters. Either you like them, you want them to live, you hate them.. It doesn't matter, as long as you feel something. A show where all you feel when seeing the characters is "meh", you won't watch it for long.

And that's the problem. It may be harder to feel something for an animated character than for a "real" fictional characters. It's just at a border. Not imaginary enough to be a novel character, not real enough to be a live action serie character.
I can see why people dislike animes, if the can't feel anything.
It's also why some people don't like science-fiction. It doesn't feel real, therefore it's awfully bland.

That's true but I get the feeling that people in Japan sympathise more with animated characters than people in Western countries. This is because people in Japan gain more exposure to anime and manga characters. That's the reason I called it a cultural thing, the Japanese attitude towards animation is largely different to other countries.

What's more anime/manga often depict realistic, even adult scenarios. Something that is never really present in Western cartoons. They are nearly always unrealistic, even the adult cartoons such as Family Guy or even the Simpsons are not realistic and are watched for its comedic value.

#196 Kit-Tsukasa

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Posted 23 December 2008 - 11:51 PM

QUOTE (monsta666 @ Dec 23 2008, 01:58 PM)
That's true but I get the feeling that people in Japan sympathise more with animated characters than people in Western countries. This is because people in Japan gain more exposure to anime and manga characters. That's the reason I called it a cultural thing, the Japanese attitude towards animation is largely different to other countries. 

What's more anime/manga often depict realistic, even adult scenarios. Something that is never really present in Western cartoons. They are nearly always unrealistic, even the adult cartoons such as Family Guy or even the Simpsons are not realistic and are watched for its comedic value.

To expand on this, most typical westerners who have never been exposed to anime like violence and comedy. Two important elements. Stuff like romance, school-life, slice-of-life usually are just supporting material to drive the comedy and violence. As a result this is why you don't see stuff like Kimi ga Nozomu Eien, Special A, H2O ~Footprints in the Sand~ on TV in the US and you see more stuff like Bleach, Naruto, One Piece, Code Geass, Mai-Hime, FLCL, Cowboy Bebop, Trigun, .hack, Rurouni Kenshin etc....

Let's put it this way and it's a fact too. The western world is a violent one. It grew up as violent nation based on expansion and desire for power. That's really all there is to it. One could argue that eastern world countries did the same, but notice that they never really expanded very far due to superior western technology. As a result, western countries felt superior. This results in violent upbringing that is passed down generation after generation, century after century.

The other mentality is westerners hate and fear losing and they hide this fear through fantasy comedies and action scenarios like monsta's examples of Simpsons and Family Guy. They result in fictitious lifestyles that westerners find funny to relax and relieve this stress. It's basically all a cover up in the end and to temporarily remove themselves from facing reality.

I agree that anime does depict realistic and even adult scenarios, but I wouldn't say often. To most extents it exists on the same line as the Simpsons and Family Guy of which I don't watch either anyways. They are both cover ups of reality that people use to relieve stress (one example would be in this time of global economic crisis). However, what makes anime better is the larger variety of genre and thus diversity of audiences. Anime incorporates not only the comedy and action that westerners like, but also other themes including the more realistic aspects of school-life, romance and to other extreme of magic, supernatural, mecha, and fantasy. This is where people don't seem to understand and as a result draw the line at comedy and action and designating everything else as porn/hentai.

Note that this applies to both adults and children regardless of age.

#197 Dalriada

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Posted 24 December 2008 - 08:23 AM

QUOTE

What's more anime/manga often depict realistic, even adult scenarios. Something that is never really present in Western cartoons. They are nearly always unrealistic, even the adult cartoons such as Family Guy or even the Simpsons are not realistic and are watched for its comedic value.


Assuming animes/manga are indeeed 'realistic' (which is far from obvious).
It's not true anymore if we add the comic books. A lot of them are realistic stories aimed at adults (not really in the USA, but it's definitly true in Europe. At least as much realistic as japanese comics).

So the animation seems to be one of the key problems.

----------------------

QUOTE

To expand on this, most typical westerners who have never been exposed to anime like violence and comedy. Two important elements. Stuff like romance, school-life, slice-of-life usually are just supporting material to drive the comedy and violence. As a result this is why you don't see stuff like Kimi ga Nozomu Eien, Special A, H2O ~Footprints in the Sand~ on TV in the US and you see more stuff like Bleach, Naruto, One Piece, Code Geass, Mai-Hime, FLCL, Cowboy Bebop, Trigun, .hack, Rurouni Kenshin etc....


Seeing how some series like Dynastie, Dallas, The Young and the Restless, The Bold and the Beautiful, Beverly Hills 90210, Melrose Place, Dawson's Creek, Seven in Heaven, Gossip Girl are successfull... And rely neither on violence, nor on comedy...
I disbelieve.

QUOTE

Let's put it this way and it's a fact too. The western world is a violent one. It grew up as violent nation based on expansion and desire for power. That's really all there is to it. One could argue that eastern world countries did the same, but notice that they never really expanded very far due to superior western technology. As a result, western countries felt superior. This results in violent upbringing that is passed down generation after generation, century after century.


Read an history book please.
The European powers were much more successful, but much more culturally violent ?
Read about the Nanking Massacre or the Unit 731, please. It wasn't much much prettier than in Europe, although on a smaller scale.



A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds, adored by little statesmen and philosophers and divines.
Ralph Waldo Emerson

#198 Kit-Tsukasa

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Posted 24 December 2008 - 08:37 PM

QUOTE (Dalriada @ Dec 24 2008, 01:23 AM)
Seeing how some series like Dynastie, Dallas, The Young and the Restless, The Bold and the Beautiful, Beverly Hills 90210, Melrose Place, Dawson's Creek, Seven in Heaven, Gossip Girl are successfull... And rely neither on violence, nor on comedy...
By the way, I don't watch those shows I only hear people talk about them and see glimpse of scenes.
I disbelieve.

Comedy is still involved. Yes they're slice of life/reality TV shows, but once again, comedy themes are still played on.

QUOTE
Read an history book please.
The European powers were much more successful, but much more culturally violent ?
Read about the Nanking Massacre or the Unit 731, please. It wasn't much much prettier than in Europe, although on a smaller scale.

I've done a great amount of research on both those topics and know very well about them. In fact I was thinking about those two situations when I was posting my previous argument and knew this matter would come up eventually. If we look at it these situations did indeed cause the most casualties out of any war or conflict throughout history (of course US Civil War was next in line after these). Now if we're looking culturally, this is one situation (though not easily that can just be ignored), out of the many more violent conflicts that have occurred in the western world. US Civil war, Holocaust, World War 1, US Revolutionary War, French Revolution, Spanish Armada, Aztec Conquests, Bloody Mary, and even now in Iraq and the "War on Terror" etc....if you go all the way back, and sum up all the casualties they become far more than the casualty number than in the Rape of Nanking which had multiple millions dead. Now if we look at eastern culture past, yes there were wars in taking over/transition of dynasties and such, and despite China's history dating back 5000+ years and having more wars than the western countries combined it still wouldn't sum up to exceed the number of victims lost in the western world.

Another topic area would be the idea of superiority, but that is a discussion for another time as that's another factor of violent upbringing.

#199 Dalriada

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Posted 24 December 2008 - 10:07 PM

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Comedy is still involved.  Yes they're slice of life/reality TV shows, but once again, comedy themes are still played on.


Could you define what you mean exactly with "comedy" ?

I took care of choosing non-comical series (comical series would be Friends, for example). There's nothing funny with Dallas or Beverly Hills 90210, no more than with Kiminozo.
QUOTE

Now if we're looking culturally, this is one situation (though not easily that can just be ignored), out of the many more violent conflicts that have occurred in the western world.  US Civil war, Holocaust, World War 1, US Revolutionary War, French Revolution, Spanish Armada, Aztec Conquests, Bloody Mary, and even now in Iraq and the "War on Terror" etc....if you go all the way back, and sum up all the casualties they become far more than the casualty number than in the Rape of Nanking which had multiple millions dead. 


Let's not begin a pointless enumeration of the history of violence through the world, it would be depressing (and the western powers would indeed win, although the question of wether Russia is West or East would be important to know the score).

Could you rather enlighten me on how the bloody history of a country shapes the tastes of the citizens ? or even their violent behaviour ?
Even World War II is a thing of the past. Most living people have not lived through. The better proof it's behind us is the European Union, whose three biggest countries are Germany, the UK and France. Which were at war during WWII and during most of their histories.

One more point : could you explain why, in non-violent Japan, shonen mangas like One Piece, Naruto or Bleach are best-sellers ? Just like in Europe or in the USA.

A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds, adored by little statesmen and philosophers and divines.
Ralph Waldo Emerson

#200 Kit-Tsukasa

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Posted 24 December 2008 - 10:47 PM

QUOTE
Could you define what you mean exactly with "comedy" ?

I took care of choosing non-comical series (comical series would be Friends, for example). There's nothing funny with Dallas or Beverly Hills 90210, no more than with Kiminozo.


I haven't seen Dallas or Beverly Hills 90210 (nor have I heard of them), but from what I've seen classmates and friends watch stuff like Gossip Girl, etc... it usually plays on the idea of sex in a very "funny" manner apparently from what I've seen based on reactions of the show from my classmates.

QUOTE
Let's not begin a pointless enumeration of the history of violence through the world, it would be depressing (and the western powers would indeed win, although the question of wether Russia is West or East would be important to know the score).

uhh...I think I'll stop there as I have a slightly different opinion about this at times. Now for Russia being east or west depends on the time period. Pre-World War 2, I believe it was West. Nowadays, it's East I think. They tend to shift, especially after the shift towards communism post World War II.

QUOTE
Could you rather enlighten me on how the bloody history of a country shapes the tastes of the citizens ? or even their violent behaviour ?
Even World War II is a thing of the past. Most living people have not lived through. The better proof it's behind us is the European Union, whose three biggest countries are Germany, the UK and France. Which were at war during WWII and during most of their histories.

There's a saying most of us know that history repeats itself. This is where this theory is from. It's also a psychological thing that have been analyzed many times in the past. I'm no psychology expert nor do I have a huge interest in it, but I remember coming across an article a while back in 2003-2004 around the time when the Iraq War started. Because the US was founded based on violence (Revolutionary War) and reunited under violence (Civil War), war and violence simply runs through the blood of Americans. I also remember reading something like this regarding torture in my English class this pass semester. It talks about a very similar thing where the US simply likes to look down on people and remain strong and this is coming from a US author herself. The government resorts to torture to not only feel superior but also believe that force and violence is the only way to apprehend terrorists and other criminals in today's society.

QUOTE
One more point : could you explain why, in non-violent Japan, shonen mangas like One Piece, Naruto or Bleach are best-sellers ? Just like in Europe or in the USA.

This is simply because these titles are ongoing and have been ongoing for a while. This was the same for Inuyasha, Ranma 1/2 and the like when they first started, but are now over. If you compare with some manga or even anime that are about 2 volumes and done with the story, it's something you pick up and are finished with when done reading. They are no longer best sellers because they are done! The same goes for anime. You don't see stuff like Code Geass, Haruhi, Macross, Evangelion, Kimi ga Nozomu Eien making the charts once again like Bleach or Naruto simply because the series are completed and never re-run on TV. Bleach and Naruto having ran 4 years straight now of course would be best sellers. You could even say the same for Pokemon which has been running for over 10 years now or even Doraemon. In fact I would argue that these are better sellers than Bleach and Naruto in Japan.

Notice how that's the reverse in US and Europe. Pokemon is a lower selling franchise than Bleach and Naruto if not equal unlike in Japan where one dominates the other. I don't know much about Europe, but in the US, you would see more kids caring about Bleach and Naruto than Pokemon nowadays. For an adult it would be the same. Does this say something? It could possibly say that because Bleach and Naruto are "cooler" than Pokemon, but what makes it more cool than Pokemon? Violence is a theory.

Another argument could stem from video games in Japan and the US.




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